Thanks.

I hope to be able to gather enough information about "bought together sets" that I can demonstrate the typical serial number range one might expect. It is difficult to document which ones were actually bought together and which ones were pieced together later, so the data quality is an issue.

KC,

I can see where pieced together sets will affect data quality.

I suppose drum molestation is another issue that could possibly affect data? Folks placing badges post-factory in this present vintage era or doing re-builds introduce items that misrepresent origin.

There have been a lot of keystone badges sold over the last 15 years along with the tools to install them, although its quite easy to identify non-original badge placement and re-wraps.

KC,

I realize nothing can be assumed when it comes to drum dating, especially Ludwig!

I have a number of Ludwig kits, both the earlier Keystone kits with white painted interiors which predominantly carry date stamps. On the other hand, later 60's and 70's kits with clear interiors predominantly, in my limited experience do not carry stamps.

On my mixed badge 1969 kit (subject of this thread), I carefully examined the 22 and the 13 and found no date stamps. Being a little lazy and not wanting to remove the head on the 16, I assumed there was no date stamp on it. Well, I have eaten humble pie in the past, so I will eat it again! Lo and behold a date stamp...

I have included a pic with the date-stamped clear interior of the 16. The other two drums were not date stamped. In my mind I can picture the Ludwig assembly line, the worker in charge of date-stamping not really taking his job too seriously or on coffee break or asked to do another job as the drums rolled by...when you think of it, date-stamping drums would be a pretty menial task.

Question, how predominant are date-stamped clear interior Ludwigs?

Cheers!

-kellyj

My rough guess is that about one third of the drums in the Reso-Cote interior era have date stamps which are still present and readable today. Some additional percentage of others have smudged or blurred date stamps. Others undoubtedly have been wiped off completely by someone cleaning their drums. Repainting of interiors may have also reduced the number of date stamps present today. This would cover the period from very late 1963 through early 1968, when both date stamps and serial numbers could be present (the type of drums for which I have been gathering data).

That percentage seems to the same or a little higher for the early clear varnish interior era from early 1968 through early 1971.

The next era (early 1971-1972) gets a little murky. Date stamps appeared on paper labels affixed to the interior of the shells from the early 1971 through early 1972 time frame. There are also a number of drums with paper labels and a yet-to-be-deciphered "Date Code" on them which appear to be from the 1971-72 time frame. A very rough estimate based upon the information I have collected would be that about half of the drums in the paper label era still have their paper labels today. Some drums may have not gotten labels, some labels may have come loose, same labels may have been removed.

The eras described above were followed by several years of drums with clear varnish or Lud-Cote interiors that did not apparently receive date stamps or paper labels at all. Ludwig appears to have simply suspended date stamping its shells in 1972 (the practice picks up again sporadically in the later 1980s and 1990s, most often with a month/year format). Therefore, any perception of clear interior drums lacking date stamps may be due to the actual suspension of the practice of date stamping rather than a large number getting missed by the date stamper.

Note 1: All my percentages include metal shelled drums like the Acrolite and Supraphonic, as my data is organized by date and serial numbers. I presented the above information in terms of time frames when particular interior finishes were used on wood drums, but the metal drums produced in those time period are included in the numbers. I suggest that the numbers are representative.

Note 2: Similar results are seen on the Ludwig Standard drums from the 1968-1973 time frame.

One thing I have found to be rather odd in my many years of collecting Ludwigs is that in 1969, I have seen MANY drums date stamped with Jan-Apr dates. I know they had to be still making a fair amount of sets in 1969 but I have seen very few that were made during May through the end of the year. I have seen a few things here and there but rarely do I see anything like a full set date stamped Nov of 1969. The Nov is just an example but it almost seems that when I come across any sets from 1969 they are almost always stamped Jan-Apr. I have seen quite a few date stamped in March specifically. My mod orange super classic is stamped March 26 1969 and I have seen prob at least 10 other 1969 sets from march. Never quite understood this but it does interest me.

BTW The rail was used a little less in the 70's but it was definately still available as John Bonham used one on his vistalites and the 1980 catalog pictured a Buddy Rich signature set with the rail. I think K.O. nailed it with the introduction of the modular hardware. The modular hardware also forced Ludwig to move the badge from the front of the bass drum towards the back and unfortunately it still sits there today!

I took a look at my list and found the following numbers of drums with both date stamps and serial numbers from 1969 (all have Keystone badges unless otherwise indicated):

JAN 38

FEB 26

MAR 30

APR 19

MAY 9

JUN 16

JUL 15

AUG 26

SEP 23 Keystone 1 Blue/Olive

OCT 6 Keystone (1 had no serial number) 1 Blue/Olive

NOV 6 Keystone 4 Blue/Olive

DEC 2 Keystone 5 Blue/Olive (3 of which had badges with serial numbers trimmed off)

This is in no way an exhaustive list, but it is a compilation of reports I have gathered over the last three and a half years with additional information provided by drum historian Mike Machat and forum members zenstat and mlayton.

Ludwig Standards I have recorded are as follows for 1969:

JAN 6

FEB 4

MAR 10

APR 3

MAY 3

JUN 3

JUL 2

AUG 3

SEP 1

OCT None

NOV None

DEC None

This list is from data I have gathered. It is certainly not exhaustive and may not be representative of the overall production of Ludwig Standards in 1969. This is an ongoing data collection effort. As more data is gathered, it may be possible to support some conclusions. At this point, I do not believe that there are enough reliable reports documented. I include the information because Ludwig was also producing Standards in 1969 and it may have impacted the production of main line drums.

not to hijack your thread KellyJ

but I have a set with the lowest number is 783426 with a date of 4/10/70

and a super sensitive supra with a number of 730874 with a date of 7/29/70 you just never know with these things.

hope this sheds some light of the mixed up world of ludwigs.

nice set by the way KellyJ

I am wondering if they put the badge on first and then stamped the date on it when final product was put together due to the numbering above.

seems like the supra shell might of been sitting for a couple of months and then finished on a later day.

Wayne