I had a conversation with a guitar player regarding his disdain for china cymbals. His actual comment was that china cymbals should be outlawed and the drummers should have no more than two crashes and one ride. I responded with my typical "for what kind of music?" retort. His response: "any kind." Total disclosure is that this guy was a really good guitar player and fairly well known producer.

It all depends on the style of music, the type of china cymbal and where it gets used. A well known reference would be the china cymbal crash that leads into the breakdown of "Who Are You" by The Who. I think a simple crash there would not have been as interesting and that example is a great use of a china.

There are a lot of different types of china cymbals that, to me, kind of get lumped into two, very broad categories that I consider "crashes" and "rides / washes". Again, these are very broad categories, but I see the crashes as the brighter, faster cymbals and they are usually smaller in nature. The rides have a deeper, more mellow wash to them and are somewhat less aggressive. Again, in very broad terms, those chinas that have a ride quality can be useful as rides or crashes. The crashes generally are not as useful as rides. Just looking through the catalogues these days it seems that most chinas tend toward the smaller crash type.

I have a couple of Sabian O-Zone cymbals to which I have added rivets. I have an 18" with 3 rivets and a 16" with 2. Those really are a great alternative when you envision a china cymbal in the mix and your bandmates or producer are not too keen on them. They are very dark, smooth and washy cymbals and are quite musical. They can be used as quick accents, and still maintain a very mellow and trashy ride. If one were playing "Africa" by Toto and wanted to play something in place of the gong that shows up on 4 on the turnarounds, this is a great option.

All in all, if it works for you and your style(s) of music, then by all means....

I saw the Vanilla Fudge Fri. nite and Carmine was crashing and RIDING a china quita a bit. Did a great solo too,naturally.

O-Zones are worth a look. I have a 12" prototype splash that is really sweet. It has just a bit more sustain than a china, but still gets out of the way quickly.

I'm very happy with my current setup, but I would consider adding a larger O-Zone cymbal. They are a nice alternative for those who want to test the china waters without a full commitment.

I'm pretty sure there's another thread about this, but here are just two of my favorite songs that just wouldn't be the same without the china sound:

"Rock'n Me" by Steve Miller, Gary Mallaber on drums

"One More Red Nightmare" by King Crimson, William Bruford on drums

I used to use a Wuhan for my old punk/metal band. It gave me the uber trash sound I wanted (best way I can describe it). I crashed it, rode it, broke it, replaced it...lovely little circle there! Later I decided to step up so I got a Sabian B8 Pro china and hated it. It was too clean, too much wash, WAY too much sustain, it sounded more like a wonky crash so I traded it and went back to the Wuhan. I do believe my first Wuhan was the smallest cymbal I ever used at a show....16". I also recorded with it. I had to let it get all nasty so it wouldn't overpower the mix...basically destroyed it. Good thing they are cheap!

Since then I have broken enough cymbals that I usually make some assortment or stack of broken cymbals as my trashy sound/effects cymbal. They give a huge attack, nice trashy sound, and duck out of the way real quick.

Really? A guitarist said something about using different methods or tools for effects?!? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? How many pedals, eq's, slides, picks, string sets does he use for tonal effect?

Oh believe me that effects pedal conversation got started pretty quickly! As with most things on this thread regarding sound (drum head selection, tuning, selection of cymbals) it is always important to think in terms of your context. It was pretty easy to ascertain the style of music you were/are playing and your cymbal selections make perfect sense. There are times when a one up one down or one up two down kit is most appropriate. There are situations where you just need that 10" tom or even an 8". There are some musical idioms where a pair of hi-hats and a couple of other versatile cymbals are all you need. And there are situations where having splash cymbals, china cymbals, brake drums, garbage can lids, etc. is desirable to produce the colors and address the moments required for the music. When I think of Manu Katche' playing for Sting, Robbie Robertson or Peter Gabriel for example, it would be a shame if all he had was a 4 piece and a couple of cymbals. On the other hand, it would be quite silly for Slim Jim to have a progressive rock kit whilst playing for the Stray Cats.

Well I can say I am with ya for the most part...but I disagree with anyone telling anyone what they should or can't have. Let alone a guitarist who alters and bastardizes the natural tones of every guitar they pick up all in the name of searching for their "sound". I do the same thing with guitars...everyone does...and if drummers could they would. How sweet would it be to have a left main with a vintage Big Muff Pi pedal, and a right main with a tube screamer, high hats with a compressor...so on?

I walked away from more than one potential band because someone had their "idea" of what a drummer needs and they expected me to go buy it, or sell my gear. Sorry, that's not how it works.

Done with my rant.

I agree completely.

Bernard Purdie could play a sack of potatoes and they would sound great, but I don't think I need to 'splain that to anyone around here! I've got an old Zildjian china lowboy cracked to sh1t and wouldn't trade it for any new ones I've heard.