Give it a look. http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/ludwig_badges.html

I have a non-serial number badge with the circle R- which appears to be unlike the '71-'72 badge from the guide in the link.

Is this badge a reproduction badge?

Doesn't appear to be a repro. I believe there was more than one time frame when numberless B/O badges appeared.

You can find more information (and much more correct information than anything posted online) about Ludwig badges and serial numbers in Rick Gier's excellent monograph on the topic, which I believe is available through the Rebeats website.

Thanks again K.O. Headed that way.

I have documented several different types of badges without serial numbers that are encountered in the 1969-early 1970s time period. Some of these are on drums with date stamps on their shells, although many additional ones are on drums without date stamps.

1. Keystone badge with Circle R - Date stamps in late 1969 and September 1970.

2. Blue/Olive badge without Circle R - Date stamps from 1970.

3. Trimmed Blue/Olive badge without Circle R (part of badge which would have had the serial number is trimmed off to fit on metal shell with raised center bead) - Date stamps from 1970 and late 1971.

4. Blue/Olive Badge with Circle R - No examples from drums with date stamps.

There are examples of all four types of blank badges from drums without date stamps, so it is difficult to determine the time frame of their use. The Blue/Olive badges with the Circle R were issued after those without the Circle R. Based upon the general serial number progression and the available date stamp information, I estimate that the introduction of the Circle R on the Blue/Olive badge occurred in about the 1972 time frame. Therefore, drums which display Blue/Olive badges with the Circle R, and for which the badge is original to those drums, date to about 1972 or newer.

I would caution that contrary to some published reports and oft repeated lore, I do not believe it is correct to say that the first of the Blue/Olive badges did not have serial numbers. From the data I have collected, it appears Blue/Olive badges in the late 1969 time frame (when the Blue/Olive badge was introduced) had serial numbers. As detailed above and in my dating guide, it was not until 1970 that the blank Blue/Olive badges were utilized.

Rob Cook's Serial Number table indicates that in 1970 some of the badges were unnumbered. The data above supports that conclusion. Rob's table also indicates that serial numbers in 1970 were used out of sequence. While this can be said of all Ludwig serial numbers since they apparently were not issued or applied in strict numerical sequence, I do not believe that serial numbers in the 1970 period were any more out of sequence than any other time period.

Rob's dating guide (published in his The Ludwig Book and cited at Ludwig's website) was a good first attempt at addressing dating of drums from the Blue/Olive badge era. As I outline in my guide, it was based upon a small number of reports, some of which appear to have been inaccurate. I make the next step in analyzing Ludwig serial numbers and relied upon much more information in creating my guide. Hopefully someone will come along and improve on my effort some day.

Rick

Thanks Rick. I just ordered your guide- "Serial Number Based Dating Guides for Vintage Ludwig Drums Main Line Drums 1963-1984 and Standard Drums 1968-1973 by Rick Gier".

http://rebeats.com/books.html

And if I had a date stamp I'd send you all the information to add to your data. My drums have the granitone paint though and no date stamp.

If it helps, the finish is red silk and the sizes are 9x13, 10x14, 16x18 and 14x24. The badges are all unnumbered and appear to be original.

Thanks for all your research on Ludwigs.

Mo Tonkie,

Since they have the style of badge with the trademark indication, they are most likely from about 1972 or newer. I think that date estimate is consistent with the Granitone/Lud-Cote interior finish, the silk wrap and the large sizes. You can look to other physical characteristics like number of plies/presence of reinforcing rings and style of hardware/mounts/spurs to refine the estimate some.

Rick

My '71 Supra, '71 Downbeat kit and '72 Jazzette all have B/O badges with no "circle R" mark with the Ludwig logo. Hope this is helpful.

Do they have date stamps?