Well said Drumhack. That would be a slippery slope indeed. Let the market handle it, not the moderators. Enough said.

On the other side of the slippery slope you seem to fear so much is the fact these few crooks continue to prey on newcomers to the forum. Yes, you veterans have insulated, and isolated yourselves from the masses. You are protected because you have skills and experience and you know the crooks and do not deal with the crooks. In the meantime, they continue to suck the lifes blood out of the forum, preying on every newcomer. Eventually, there wont be any new members, and the old ones leave one by one by one.

Yea, there is your slippery slope.

Now, THAT scenario, sounds a whole lot like the kind of arrogant, I am better than you, and will always be better than you, kind of attitude mentioned by the OP.

This forum is doomed if that is what we prefer.

I am not afraid of the slippery slope as you seem to wish to abrasively point out for reasons unbeknownst to me. My post included the fact that I PM'd Mcjnic, when I was a new guy ("couple years ago"), and asked him about a guy who replied to my PM. He was helpful in his reply, and I passed on the deal. He was the veteran, I was the new guy.

What are your criteria for banning people then Ploughman? Basically anything that you don't agree with? What constitutes a bad seller? What is the definition of a drum forum crook? If we are now banning "bad sellers" why don't we ban obscene language and drug references then? Why don't we ban guys who don't like the Beatles? Why don't we ban members who don't donate? Why don't we ban members who haven't signed up for the monthly newsletter? Oh yeah, we are now banning members who don't go to the Chicago drum show now too. That is my point. That is the slippery slope. Everyone has different tolerances and standards, and to start swinging the axe would be ridiculous based on the feelings of a couple of guys. That is my point. To start banning guys on the wishes of a few would create a situation where the mods would be heavily solicited for further action based on whatever particular item ticked off said member. "Hey, you banned so and so for that, why not this?" If you don't think that will happen, then I don't know how better to explain my position.

There is an easy way to solve the bad seller problem, but nobody will like it. Get rid of the for sale section altogether. Problem solved.........How about that one?

Dan

What are your criteria for banning people then Ploughman? Basically anything that you don't agree with?

I will attempt to give answer to this. My agreement or disagreement with reasonable criteria, does not in itself make the criteria reasonable nor unreasonable. Neither would yours. However, the position you take is unreasonable, and highly argumentative, and in no way qualifies as constructive to the discussion at hand. I see this as a personal attack against myself because I disagree with your opinion. You have a right to your opinion, even though it may seem unreasonable to a majority, or even a minority of the members. Right now, it seems very unreasonable to me. I have not set myself onto a pedastle as a judge of anyone. And yet, that is the implication of your statement. As if I am the only one who feels the abuses should no longer be tolerated. I am not. Yet, you make the attack personal in your post. I will attempt to answer your questions. They are things I do not, as you put it.... ”agree with.” They are things any reasonable person should not agree with, including yourself.

What constitutes a bad seller?

1. Grossly misrepresenting a drum or other item for sale as being of a certain quality/condition and the item proves to be much less in fact than it was represented.

2. Shipping an item or set without adequate, reasonable protection for shipment.

3. Promising a full refund if the buyer is not satisfied upon receipt of the item, and then refusing to make good the promise.

4. Concealing condition issues of an item to increase its sale value and then refusing to make it good.

5. Grossly overcharging shipping.

6. Failing to ship in a timely manner.

Those are things I do not believe should be tolerated.

What is the definition of a drum forum crook?

Repeatedly engaging in the above.

Repeated Failure to deliver in a timely manner.

Failure to deliver at all.

Failure to refund on a promised return and refund policy.

If we are now banning "bad sellers" why don't we ban obscene language and drug references then? Why don't we ban guys who don't like the Beatles? Why don't we ban members who don't donate? Why don't we ban members who haven't signed up for the monthly newsletter? Oh yeah, we are now banning members who don't go to the Chicago drum show now too. That is my point. That is the slippery slope. Everyone has different tolerances and standards, and to start swinging the axe would be ridiculous based on the feelings of a couple of guys. That is my point. To start banning guys on the wishes of a few would create a situation where the mods would be heavily solicited for further action based on whatever particular item ticked off said member. "Hey, you banned so and so for that, why not this?" If you don't think that will happen, then I don't know how better to explain my position.

C'mon man, this is a complete and total strawman and unworthy of response.

There is an easy way to solve the bad seller problem, but nobody will like it. Get rid of the for sale section altogether. Problem solved.........How about that one?

Throw out the baby with the bathwater. Old cliché, but adequate for this statement. However, if that becomes necessary, I wouldnt argue the point. If as a group of grown adults we cannot come to a reasonable consensus on how to deal with problems and issues, then it becomes obvious none of us is responsible enough to engage in commerce with each other.

As for the op..............

I put this same "rant" in another section here on VDF, but I didn't think everyone would get to see it so I re-entered it here. Some "collectors" don't share as much information as they "think or say" that they do. I won't say who they are, as they already know. I have experienced alot of the "who are you?" attitude from a few members here when asking a simple question about a drum, hardware etc... Then when you do get an answer to your question or have the opportunity to purchase a part you need, it has the "can you afford to buy this from me?" response and if they want to buy something from you, they want it for nothing, even though they can afford to pay what you're asking. I guess my thought is, don't parade your wares or your knowledge and then think you're "above" all of those trying to put a drum together. Some of us out here need to "scrimp and save" every dime to put one nice piece together. They pay next to nothing for something and then ask the world for it (see GREED, this gets you nowhere). So the "I'm the King of the hill" or the "look at everything I have" attitude will only come back to haunt you someday. On a more positive note: There are many more members here who would give you the shirt off there back to help you and really do some homework or legwork to help you. I've given pieces for free and have received pieces for free. Those are the ones that truly love the instrument, care about another member and not just care about what it's worth or how they look standing in front of it...

What are your thoughts???

I have to say, I agree. That "who are you?" attitude is evident in many of the responses in this thread. And it will eventually destroy something good.

Well, I will just say that I agree to disagree on the banning issue. I don't think it is a good idea.

Toodles

Drumhack band3Guitar Dude Man:Santa:Chewie:singer

I got a note I should post something, but, this may not be s safe subject...

I'll keep looking.

larry

p.s. hello everyone.