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I've had it up to here! Last viewed: 4 hours ago

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From JRichard

The "virgin shell" is all marketing hype. You can always re-fit the kit with your favorite tom mount on your own. Go with what you feel is right for you, forget all the hype.

I am so glad someone opened this can of worms again. This modern, trendy desire for full "open" resonance has gone a bit extreme. It presumes that we drummers all want our drums (both heads and shells) to ring like brass bells. I remember how cheap MIJ stencil kits and snares in the '60's used to ring due to poorly finished bearing edges, and how we associated this ring with cheap drums and heads. At that period in time, we actually used a drum's tone control to reduce this live, ringy sound, and maybe even added a little duct tape on the head to seal the deal. Now with modern "custom" drums lacking built-in mufflers and tone controls, today's drummers buy Moon Gels to subdue the resonance qualities they paid so much for! Ironic.

One of my beginer students recently tried to re-educate me by pointing out, "My new drums are so much louder than your old set we practice on", perpetuating the misconception among novices that louder is better. This "louder is better" philosophy is most prevalent in many club bands in which the drummer believes he's the lead instrument, pounding mercilessly on his wonderfully resonant custom kit as if he's playing un-mic'd in Madison Square Garden. Absolutely obnoxious.

Well, that's my rant. I feel better now. Hope there's a few out there who also believe maximum resonance does not equal better tone.

Mike C.

-No Guru... still learning more every day-
Posted on 12 years ago
#11
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I have my choice of four Slingerland kits where the bass drums and mounted toms are all "experienced"—wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Each set gives me tons of tone, enough that my guitar player complains about the sustain (which is fodder for another thread).

9x Slingerland New Rock 50N 12-13-16-22 with 170 (Super S-O-M) holder
• 1979 Oak
• 1978 Blakrome + 6.5x14 TDR SD
• 1977 Black Diamond Pearl + 5x14 SD (gold badge, Rapid strainer)
• 1976 Black Cordova
• 1975 Silver Sparkle + 5x14 SD (Rapid strainer)
• 1974 Chrome + 5x14 COB TDR and 6.5x14 COW Zoomatic SDs
• 1973 Purple Sparkle
• 1973 Phantom (clear)
• 1971 Walnut (gold badges) + 5x14 TDR SD
1x Rogers Powertone Londoner V 12-13-16-22
• 1972 Butcher Block + 1979 big R Dynasonic SD
Posted on 12 years ago
#12
Posts: 1427 Threads: 66
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From mchair303

One of my beginer students recently tried to re-educate me by pointing out, "My new drums are so much louder than your old set we practice on", perpetuating the misconception among novices that louder is better. This "louder is better" philosophy is most prevalent in many club bands in which the drummer believes he's the lead instrument, pounding mercilessly on his wonderfully resonant custom kit as if he's playing un-mic'd in Madison Square Garden. Absolutely obnoxious. Mike C.

This same technique is used for selling hi-end audio equipment. The louder one 'always' sounds better...

I had a similar discussion with someone trying to convince me I needed to have RIMS mounts for all my RC toms. I said "Why? Don't you think they resonate enough now?" I don't fight this battle any longer, but agree whole-heartedly that some instances, such as the rail/clip/diamond plate mount used in the 60's-70's completely choked the ride tom(s) and why I elected to mount my old D-20 Yamaha ride tom on a RIMS mount.

There is a time and place for everything...

Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Musashi 6.5X13 Oak; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo
Posted on 12 years ago
#13
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Yeah, it's a sad day in Hell.

Can anyone explain why in the world 20" and 22" diameter bass drum shells all now are made with a depth of 20" or even 22" ? To me makes no sense whatsoever. I've tried to come up with a justification as to why the Asian manufacturers would do this - like maybe they all somehow got stuck with raw 20" and 22" diameter shell blanks that were each 300 feet long and had to figure out a way to get rid of them and use up all the extra wood before they would be allowed to place a new order, etc., but I know that can't be the reason. I just don't get it! They seem to have perfected the way to make drums cutting every corner imaginable - total overkill cost efficiency process to maximize profits - and then make all their bass drums so deep they look more like cannon barrels on legs! Not to mention how much air space has to be moved in order to push the front head! And then there's "THE OFFICIAL BASS DRUM PEDAL" - same pedal on every make of drum - only the name on the foot board changes! Why did I ever get started with this thread! Now I'm angry just thinkin' about all this stuff again!

Soap Box

Posted on 12 years ago
#14
Posts: 1427 Threads: 66
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A little bit deeper is OK with me, IF the diameter suports it. My ideal sizes are (diameter X depth):

18X12

20X14

22X16

24X18

Bigger? I think 22 is big enough personally, but as above, a time and place for everything...

Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Musashi 6.5X13 Oak; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo
Posted on 12 years ago
#15
Posts: 5550 Threads: 576
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its all about sound/tone control if it sounds good so be it that's whats important!!!

April 2nd 1969 scarfed pink champagne holly wood and 65/66 downbeat snare, and , supra same year very minty kit old pies
66/67 downbeat with canister
Super 400 small round knob
1967 super classic obp





once the brass ceases to glitter, and the drum looses its luster, and the stage remains dark, all you have left is the timbre of family.
Posted on 12 years ago
#16
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If someone would have the finances for an up-start, they just might be able to give the "big boys" a run for their money.

Simple, but effective and affordable drums without the gimmicks. Stay true to the craft of making a drum.

[LIST]

[*]3-ply or 6-ply shells

[*]rounded bearing edges for the vintage sound or 45 degree bearing edges for a more modern sound

[*]minimum choice of finish/wrap

[*]solid, but affordable original hardware (lugs/throw-offs/mounts)

[*]choice of triple flange or cast hoops

[*]only sell shell packs (don't compete with the stand/pedal manufacturers)

[*]Jazz kit (12/14/18 or 20) w/single ply coated or clear heads

[*]Rock kit (12/13/16/22) w/2-ply coated or clear heads

[*]Ultimate kit (13/14/16/18/24) w/2-ply coated or clear heads

[*]notice that most drum sizes are used in more than one kit (minus the bass drums)

[*]14x5 snare with 8 lugs added to any kit

[*]14x6.5 snare with 10 lugs added to any kit

[*]actual snare beds on all snare drums

[/LIST]

Simple marketing. Let the appearance, sound, quality construction and price sell the drums. Of course, doing all of this in the USA would be the challenge. But, this is what actually might be needed in the USA right now.

Affordable American drums, made by Americans to be played by Americans.

-Tim

Posted on 12 years ago
#17
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From dsansone

Hey Everyone - ok - I just have to rant. What is it with practically every new kit on the market,particularly custom makes, that ALL have virgin bass drums?!I know that resonance is the buzz word, but not everyone desires his drums to echo all over creation. Every time I zero in on a kit that looks appealing, there we go again - toms mounted on cymbal stands - even the floor toms now. Couple this with 45 degree edges that all drums have with the exception of Gretsch, and I spend all day trying to muffle the sound. If I go to thicker heads, there goes the stick response. One could always special order mounted toms from,say,DW, but I'd have to sell my first born to buy it. I'm almost 60 and have been playing on and off since 1964. Big deal,I know. But you can't tell me that, blindfolded, anybody could tell the difference between the standard mounted toms and the the latest craze of suspended drums. I'm not tall and I've tried playing a small tom taht is suspended on a stand. I can't get comfortable. And all this marketing nonsense about shells made from North American maple, bubinga, gum,ash, Australian,Brazilian,Canadian ,etc.etc.etc. Why is it that some of the most coveted drums available are the Radio Kings and the famous 3 ply Luddys of the 60's. Is it just me? Please, any empathy would be greatly appreciated.Dave

SSHHHH ! Let them have their fancy schmancy exotic wood kits for tens of thousands...That leaves a larger selection of prized and coveted vintage sets for us! In the early 60s Ludwig did use North American Hardrock Maple with a North American Poplar Core and an African Mahogany inner Ply. The African Mahogany that both Ludwig and Slingerland used is now on the endangered list. Musical grade African Mahogany is one of the reasons those vintage drums sound so fantastic compared to the latest and greatest offerings some of which are designed specifically for squids.

Posted on 12 years ago
#18
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I am just fine taking the alternate stance. I like the idea of having a full range of sonic opportunities from my drums whether wide open or muted. To me it is very easy to hear the difference. I put new heads on drum kits and tune all the time and I always start with my toms on a padded surface. Once I get the tom where I like it I then hold it by the rim in the air and play it. The end result should be a clear tone with a decent amount of sustain and deep resonance. If I take that drum and immediately place it on a standard mount, the difference in not only sustain, but overall tone is very decidedly different. Even the Yamaha YESS mounts bug me. So I use suspended mounts for toms and shock mounted feet on my floor toms. I find the difference to be quite noticeable. If I need a muffled sound I can create it. If I need a wide open sound I can create that. I can also create anything in between.

These advancements are not for everyone as aural aesthetics are certainly a personal thing, but that does not mean they are not valid. If the sound you are looking for is a vintage drum, then there is no need to look at new drums. There are plenty of custom manufacturers that will build whatever you want if you want to go that route. Check out C & C and Anchor Drums as a starting point. C & C is a true drum manufacturer as they make their own shells. Anchor is another custom company that uses Keller shells, but Shawn has a particular design style that would appeal to vintage enthusiasts.

As to bass drum mounts, it is easy enough to add one. I personnaly do not care that much for them as I do hear the difference and I feel my mounting options become pretty limited. That is why some guys started using snare stands for the rack toms. You don't have to like stand mounted hanging toms but you can put them in a variety of places that you could never accomplish with a rail or double tom mount.

All of that to say, newer trends are not for everyone. That doesn't make them wrong, just different. I am really glad we are all somewhat different. It would be a drag if the world was filled with millions of drummers that all sounded alike. Find what works for you and barrel on!

tnsquint
Very proud owner of a new Blaemire Snare 6.5 x 14 made by Jerry Jenkins "Drumjinx"
Posted on 12 years ago
#19
Posts: 1427 Threads: 66
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From thornbeck

If someone would have the finances for an up-start, they just might be able to give the "big boys" a run for their money.Simple, but effective and affordable drums without the gimmicks. Stay true to the craft of making a drum.[LIST][*]3-ply or 6-ply shells[*]rounded bearing edges for the vintage sound or 45 degree bearing edges for a more modern sound[*]minimum choice of finish/wrap[*]solid, but affordable original hardware (lugs/throw-offs/mounts)[*]choice of triple flange or cast hoops[*]only sell shell packs (don't compete with the stand/pedal manufacturers)[*]Jazz kit (12/14/18 or 20) w/single ply coated or clear heads[*]Rock kit (12/13/16/22) w/2-ply coated or clear heads[*]Ultimate kit (13/14/16/18/24) w/2-ply coated or clear heads[*]notice that most drum sizes are used in more than one kit (minus the bass drums)[*]14x5 snare with 8 lugs added to any kit[*]14x6.5 snare with 10 lugs added to any kit[*]actual snare beds on all snare drums[/LIST]Simple marketing. Let the appearance, sound, quality construction and price sell the drums. Of course, doing all of this in the USA would be the challenge. But, this is what actually might be needed in the USA right now.Affordable American drums, made by Americans to be played by Americans.-Tim

You can get this now from Precision Drum company, and have plenty of options beyond what you have limited your 'kits' to.

Any depth and diameter, a choice of lugs and hoop options, tons of finishes...

Oh, and USA made parts and labor too. They have a few kits available all the time that are real bargains- even clear acrylic kits these days, if you are a vistalite man...

The pricing is very fair due to low overhead (the 'shop' is the basement of an old house; showroom and office is upstairs). Great people too- 2nd for sure, maybe 3rd generation drum makers.

Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Musashi 6.5X13 Oak; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo
Posted on 12 years ago
#20
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