Not all cut badges are brass shells. Probably most actually aren't but are just aluminum shells that were originally punched for the Keystone but then put together after the badge was changed. The rare COB shelled ones tend to have cut badges but so do regular Supras produced during that badge transition.

I own one of the cut badge COB Supras, aside from a mint shell and the badge it is pretty much the same drum as my '76 Ludalloy. As far as weight and components go. Now they do sound quite different.

I wanted to add to the responses above on the topic of the Blue/Olive badges without serial numbers.

There was not a clean and orderly progression from Keystone badges to Blue/Olive badges without serial numbers to Blue/Olive badges with serial numbers.

I often see the statement that the first of the Blue/Olive badge badges did not have serial numbers. The basis for this statement appears to be a misinterpretation of Rob Cook's serial number dating guide's entry from 1970 indicating that serial numbers were "out of sequence, unnumbered." Rob's guide shows Blue/Olive badges in 1969 with serial numbers, so his table does not indicate that the first Blue/Olive badges lacked serial numbers. Therefore, those who rely upon Rob Cook's table to support this statement are not reading the entire chart. However, this information seems to get lost in the hurry to establish quick and easy rules for Ludwig's use of badges and serial numbers.

More recent data collection and analysis supports Rob Cook's original statements and offer additional refinement. Based upon the more recent information, the first Blue/Olive badges had serial numbers, picking up in the serial number sequence where the Keystone badges left off. The Blue/Olive badges were introduced in the later part of 1969. It was a bit later, primarily in 1970, that Blue/Olive badges appeared without serial numbers. (There are a few reports of drums with Blue/Olive badges without serial numbers from other years.) The Blue/Olive badges without serial numbers seem to have been used concurrently with Blue/Olive badges that possessed serial numbers. So there does not appear to be a time period when Ludwig only used badges without serial numbers.

There are also Blue/Olive badges which have had the bottom portion of the badge trimmed or cut off. It is difficult to know if these trimmed badges ever possessed serial numbers. Therefore, any discussion of Blue/Olive badges without serial numbers must differentiate between those which are complete and lack serial numbers and those which have been trimmed and have no place on the badge for serial numbers. I believe that both categories of badges were included in the description "unnumbered" by Rob Cook. This is an accurate description, although it tends to muddy the picture a bit.

I do not offer an explanation as to why the serial numbers were used or not used in this manner. Although such speculation and conjecture is a part of this wonderful hobby of vintage drums, many guesses become gospel through repetition.

One should also keep in mind that some vintage drums have been modified from their original condition. Some badges have been changed and some date stamps have been "added" to make drums appear more authentic. One must try to filter out the non-original drums when developing rules to describe what Ludwig did decades ago.

KCDrumDad

Thanks for the great information.

What I found interesting was the keystone to B/O badges serial numbers

Where would the cut badge fit in, between the Keystone and B/O, any idea.

There are multiple occurrences of cut or trimmed badges. I have recorded numerous drums with date stamps from 1969, 1970 and 1971, with the majority being from 1970. In addition, there are numerous examples of trimmed badges on drums with paper labels which possessed Date Codes on them rather than date stamps. Although the mystery of Date Codes has not yet been solved, they appear to have been used in about the 1970-1972 time frame. In addition, there are reports of trimmed badges without date stamps or Date Codes. All of these examples of trimmed badges are the first style of Blue/Olive badges that did not have the "circle R" trademark registration symbol on them. This first style of B/O badge was used until about 1972.

The common explanation for the trimming of badges (at least in the case of those from the early 1970s) is that metal shells were drilled for Keystone badges. The vent hole position was too close to the raised center bead to accommodate the Blue/Olive badges, so the badges had to be trimmed so that they would fit. Although this explanation could be correct, it would require that many of the shells were date stamped a year or more after their manufacture (assuming that the vent hole location would have been changed in manufacturing in late 1969 when the badge change occurred) or that some shells were manufactured with lower vent holes well after the badge switch. I do not have any evidence to show what occurred.

As far as where these fit in the timeline, I would suggest that the trimmed badges were used concurrently with both badges with serial numbers and those without. The trimmed ones appeared only on the metal shelled drums, since the intact Blue/Olive badges would fit on wood shelled drums no matter where the vent holes were drilled.

There are also reports of trimmed badges later in the 1970s on Chrome over Brass Supraphonics. These drums often had a "B" stamped near the tone control dial. These drums should have the second style Blue/Olive badge with the "circle R" indicator.

A third instance of trimmed badges is on relatively modern drums designated as seconds.

I like Ludwig badges...........That is all.. :pLoLoLoLo

Thank you KCDrumDad

I have two Supra's 5x14 cut badge and a 6.5x14 B/O, both are in very nice shape, minor pitting, the serial number on the 6.5 x14 is 2215138, I was told it was a 70's and I'm the third owner.

The cut badge has no tags, stamps etc.

At some point I would like to add a black beauty to the collection 5x14,

maybe next years vintage drum show.

Based upon the serial number that you provided, I suggest that your 6.5x14 snare is more likely to be from the early 1980s than the 1970s.

Thanks KCDrumDad, for that information.