The high water mark for me and speed is Rock and Roll ,by led Zep if i can play the notes at the correct speed with bass drum ghost notes and snare ghost notes i am still firing on all cylinders but seems the last couple years i am about 1/8th slow so at 62 I am still rockin and rollin just a bit slower and yeah is Pi$$es me off... :)

That is a visual illusion and a very misunderstood part of the mechanics of the wrist/hand/fingers. Buddy, in his book talked about wrist. hand, arm action and not finger action. The fingers will move slightly based on wrist position and also because the energy from the stick (the stick is resting on the fingers and will be moved due to the rebound energy) if you are playing "tension free"!!!

Try this experiement: hold your arm at your side; bend at your elbow so the forearm is parallel with the ground and the palm is facing down, the wrist should be straight and the fingers relaxed with no tension. the top of the knuckles in line with the top of the wrist and forearm.

Now relax the wrist and allow it to break and drop the top of the knuckles below the forearm. What did your fingers do... what position did they move into naturally?

Next, return the hand to the parallel postion - the top of the knuckles in line with the top of the wrist and forearm and aprallel with the floor. With no tension what postion are your fingers in?

Lastly, break the wrist up and back, moving the knuckles towards your biceps and above the forearm. Where did your fingers move?

You see, by moving the wrist alone - making that joint do the work - your fingers will move beacuase you're changing the "length" of the muscles without physically moving the fingers.

Now contrast that by holding the forearm/wrist parallel and consciously moving only the fingers.

Buddy was big on wrist movement and advocated the pillow practice to develop the wrist without rebound. The natural rebound of the stick, which will "excite" the fingers is often confused and then believed to be the prime motivator for the stick - IT AINT - the wrist is.

Now, that is not to say Buddy never purposefully employed finger technique - he did at times - however, the bullwork is the wrist.

I hate to see videos like JoJo's 'cause he is just flat out wrong on many things and provides the incorrect way/method/description to achieve what he has gotten too. I cringe at these so called "Masters of the Moeller." They may have some adapatable technique but are not really well versed in the mechanics and thus the passing of correct knowledge. I'll say too that you can achieve results using available YouTube methods... but there are better techniques and better descriptions....

+1

Excellent analysis.

I believe it was discussed prior and the gent who 'revealed' called it a whipped cream roll. It was a method in which Buddy employed to handle amazing one-handed rolls. Very effective and one that I have used for years. Wrists were Buddy's muscle, not fingers.

I also wholeheartedly agree with your take on JoJo.

I believe there are many many drummers out there who have cut corners on the Moeller technique due to personal restrictions. They found an 'easier' way. They are more of an adaptation of Moeller than Masters, for sure. Not to say they lack as drummers ... they've just not actually gotten Moeller stuff down pat.

All of this reeks of the Weckl movement of the late 80s and 90s. So, I blame Dave.;)

Solid points ... and right on with the Dave Weckl (and those other poor Gruber students). It's interresting to see the old vid of Dave expalining Moeller and whipping the stick down and see it flying back on a rebound with no control (this is also shown in slo-mo). Most of those guys just never got around to dealing with what has been called "low Moeller" or that magic spot where you control the rebound to about one inch off the drum head. Jim Chapin was another one that was into letting that stick bang all the way back up (although he had better lateral control the does Weckl) thinking there was an advantage to all that stick height.

Whipped cream roll is a great name! It is interesting to see how little energy is required to keep the sticks moving once you get them moving with a that wicked fluttering motion. The saddest thing is that it is difficult to translate into words and it doesn't photograph/video very well.

It would be awesome to get a hold of that super-high-speed vid equipment to slow this stuff down and analyze it so everybody could access the "secret" (if they were willing to put in the time).

Opinions can vary, it's not about 'who is better than who' what matters is exploring as many options as needed to find the one that works for each individual. What 'works' for you, may not work for me. (Or somebody else.) I offered an option/explanation and a source.

Quote: ... and right on with the Dave Weckl (and those other poor Gruber students).

Of course, it's always easier to critique and tear down. Just dive down into the Id and unleash the Kraken. Helpful references, alternatives or positive additions to the information offered is always most welcome however. But unless you can play half of what Weckl can play... I'd show a bit more humility in my criticism. It's one thing to 'talk down' to an inferior player, but it's always real hard to fling poop uphill.

Thanks for the contribution, but I'm not going to turn this into a debate about which method/school of thought, is right or wrong. There is no right or wrong... again, it's about what -works- for each individual.

John

This is a pretty good helpful reference, alternative, and positive addition. That was the point discussed. The Whipped Cream roll. Definitely a pretty cool Buddy technique. Check out the Burning for Buddy vids and listen to the gent discuss and demonstrate it there. Neato stuff.

I'm still interested in comparing notes about what others do to keep their chops up. (Which is the original topic...)

John

Please forgive Hoppy. I'm sure he didn't realize he was ruffling you. He's a good guy and most likely didn't mean to take your topic astray. I'll also guard each post on this thread and ensure they only have to do with your original post.

Hoppy didn't "ruffle" me in any way, you didn't need to apologize for him unless your real point was to accuse me of being "ruffled."

As for you, I'm learning to simply ignore most of it. Not worth the cheese on my peanuts. Unless you actaully practice and have a personal routine you'd like to share, you've taken up enough bandwidth here with off topic remarks. Just trying to shoot the shiznit with some fellow players here. Not looking for a pi$$ing contest with the likes of you.

Back to topic... hopefully.

John

Wow. I'm sorry. I have no idea what brought this on,but I am sorry if it was something Hoppy or I inadvertently did. Not sure why, but I'm sure you have a valid reason. Please forgive my jokes and my bringing up the Whipped Cream roll. Going to bed. Hopefully all will be good with the rising of the sun. See ya and keep smiling. No harm meant. :)