from my experience, the universal pioneer that i had, the shell was not as thick as my 10 lug brass shell, since the 8 lug model for 1923 is the same as my 10 lug model, from 1922-1923 was the year the shell was drastically changed,as with the model evolution,in manufacturing that's the process,just as you used the pioneer analogy thats what happend with the snare drum, remember it was still evolving at this time, and Mr Ludwig could market a producet so the name pioneer for a snare drum?? perfect, all i know of the old brass drums orchestrial drummers always go after the 10 lug models, not the 6 lug models!Violin

Just a couple of thoughts.......

You are dealing with two different brass shell Ludwigs during that era......

The pioneer had a lighter weight shell, typical bearing edges for brass shell snares of that era, and the rim usually had the Ludwig oval stamped on it. This drum was 6 or 8 lugs. Mostly seen in a 5x14, I have seen an occasional 6.5x14. It also had banded steel hoops. The Pioneer was not considered to be a professional model (more of a student model) and was produced well into the 30's and perhaps beyond.

The Standard, was the heavier, two piece brass shell, had the bell shaped bearing edges that are soldered back in to the shell (one of the factors that help create their marvelous sound) and had the ludwig script logo stamped on the shell. It also had single flange hoops. I have seen a few rare versions with the script logo engraved on the shell. The Standard type shell actually offered a 6 lug version earlier in the 20's, and also offered the 8 and 10 lug models as well as the decade progressed. You will see some of the early 20's heavy brass shells (6 lugs) with the hoop mounted strainer. IMHO, 8 lug versions are the most desirable among most collectors, but 10 lugs ain't bad either.

The Standard was available in 4x14, 5x14, 6.5x14 (and the same depths in 15"). It was also offered as a Super Sensitive model. The Standard shell was the same shell used for Black Beauties.

Here's a 20's 8 lug Standard with all the features mentioned above.... This one's a bit unusual as it has black nickel plated hoops and the script logo is engraved (as opposed to the usual stamped logo).

[IMG]http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/Luxor65/LL4-1.jpg[/IMG]

Thank you for your imput!

So were the early 6 luggers models better than later model 6 luggers? They appear to have had the same shell thickness etc. as the later 8 lug Pioneers (I think later on the Universals were 6 lugs but with a hoop mount strainer from an earlier year)? Can anybody offer the gauge differences in those old shells, maybe up to 1932 (or whatever you have), so we can know precisely. Many of the questions in my first post are not being answered. But I do think that what has been presented does indicate that the best drums in one year could be maintained as a more inexpensive model in a following year. The soldering of the bearing edge fold-back is important I totally agree! As is the change in thickness that wasn’t that much, and as I said seems to correspond with the timing of engraving the shells. What is the evidence that a later 8 lug Pioneer is not the same quality drum as the 6 lug 1918 models or is the 8 lug Pioneer only better because it has the added tuning ability. So did the best model in an earlier year become a student model in "name only"? If so then if you wanted a 1918 6 lug model you could get a bargain on a 6 lug Pioneer or whatever. Of course I’m looking for the essential difference and it dosen’t seem to be that obvious is all I'm saying.

Thanks for getting in on this you guys!!! I truly am looking for the change timelines!

Clapping Happy2

Powertone - Do you know what years and models they were stamping the logo and when/what model they engraved the logo? It seems odd to me that Ludwig would stamp their finest drums when they could have engraved them, so were they engraving their top models for a period of time and then stamping that model during a later period of time? Or, were they stamping and engraving the logo on the shells in the same period?

Thanks Powertone!!!

Thanks for the great photo too! A great drum!

[QUOTE=Powertone;60570]Just a couple of thoughts.......

You are dealing with two different brass shell Ludwigs during that era......

The pioneer had a lighter weight shell, typical bearing edges for brass shell snares of that era, and the rim usually had the Ludwig oval stamped on it. This drum was 6 or 8 lugs. Mostly seen in a 5x14, I have seen an occasional 6.5x14. It also had banded steel hoops. The Pioneer was not considered to be a professional model (more of a student model) and was produced well into the 30's and perhaps beyond.

The Standard, was the heavier, two piece brass shell, had the bell shaped bearing edges that are soldered back in to the shell (one of the factors that help create their marvelous sound) and had the ludwig script logo stamped on the shell. It also had single flange hoops. I have seen a few rare versions with the script logo engraved on the shell. The Standard type shell actually offered a 6 lug version earlier in the 20's, and also offered the 8 and 10 lug models as well as the decade progressed. You will see some of the early 20's heavy brass shells (6 lugs) with the hoop mounted strainer. IMHO, 8 lug versions are the most desirable among most collectors, but 10 lugs ain't bad either.

The Standard was available in 4x14, 5x14, 6.5x14 (and the same depths in 15"). It was also offered as a Super Sensitive model. The Standard shell was the same shell used for Black Beauties.

Here's a 20's 8 lug Standard with all the features mentioned above.... This one's a bit unusual as it has black nickel plated hoops and the script logo is engraved (as opposed to the usual stamped logo).

[IMG]http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/Luxor65/LL4-1.jpg[/IMG]QUOTE]powertone thanks for the imput, man that is a cool looking snare drum, thanks for showing it to us!!Clapping Happy2

vintagemore2000 - You mentioned "drastically changed". Details about this change (when, what, how long, what models etc.) is exactly what I’m looking for and this info seems to be mentioned in very vague ways these days. Could you point me towards a source of the specific details I’ve mentioned (gauge differences, manufacturing changes and such, for those early years), because Ludwig never mentioned many of those subtle changes back then and every year referred to their top models as the best.

Can you point me to the 1920 to1922 snare catalogs, because although there is no mention of a 10 lug 14” snare (like the one you mention) in the 1923 catalog, the 1924 D snare catalog mentions that you could order 10 lugs on a 14” for an extra cost (10 lug 15”ers had already been available). Was your 10 lugger offered as a special order in 1922? I’m missing the info from precisely the years you mention, except for 1923. I am having a hard time finding the transition time info of 1922 you mention. Did they start engraving the shell logo in 1922? I sure wish you and I and the rest, could flesh this info out in detail.

Thanks again!

Re engraved vs stamped....... The normal script logo on the shell, located next to the strainer on 8 lug drums, and one panel over from the strainer on ten lug drums, was stamped into the shell. I have seen one or two drums were it was actually engraved. This was a one off thing, not a regular feature that happened on a timeline.

I don't know exactly when they began stamping the logo on the heavy brass two piece shells. I assume around the time they started using the pioneer strainer.

There were essentially two brass shells going on simultaneously.

O.K. I’ve found a mention of the “Hard Spun” 18 gauge stock used for the metal shells in 1918 & 1919. So that is a starting point on the weight of the metal shells with the rib around the center of it. They also note that it is the “strongest shell for its weight ever constructed”. That implies to me that there were heavier drums out there at the time and Ludwig was promoting that they made it light (not that it was the lightest they ever made in that stye). Is this the heavy gauge shell or should we expect that the later shells of, say 1923 were a thicker gauge (16 or 14 etc.) than these early ribbed shells?

Here is the link to the 1918 catalog page that mentions the shell thickness:

http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/images/ludwig_snaredrums/1918-ludwig-snare-drums-3.jpg

Here is another catalog page from 1927 where Ludwig mentions the weight of the Professional 5 x 14 model, again promoting its lightness:

http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/images/ludwig_snaredrums/1927_ludwig_snaredrums6.jpg

Powertone - Thanks for your input! I was wondering about that logo placement, and you cleared that up for me.:)

Do you know if the simultaneous production of the two different shells you mentioned were before 1923 or after that? Did they only stamp the logo on heavier shells or did they stamp both weights? It seem like there are a few different logo styles too. I guess they changed it a little over those early years.