Take it easy, guys. :)

In the 80's - 90's the stuff was everywhere with "how much 'fer that there fancy drum" stories legion.

As a longtime collector and drum history nut, I see the availabilty of the old drums levelling off and now being priced accordingly.

Re-Issues not maintaining their value? What up with one John Aldridge then?

A growing number of players are re-considering Ludwig now that the company has decided to revisit their heritage.

Heck, Tre from Green Day is playing a new BB.

It is however, fortunate that drums generally didn't get cigarette burns or belt buckle rash. A DW "relic series" would surely follow...

Peace.

I am not offended or upset. In fact, I LOVE the discussion! :)

-Re-Issues not maintaining their value? What up with one John Aldridge then?

To be honest....I don't think anything is going on with John Aldridge other than some nice engraving work -which really is more a form of artwork. That's where I think the collectibilty value is in something like that. He doesn't make the drums, i.e., the shells and components. He gets the parts and then assembles them and then he does his engraving thing to them. He filled a niche for the people who liked the look of engraved Black Beauties, but couldn't find a nice enough example of an old one. Again, as nice as they might be, they are a tribute (at best) to the real thing.

-A growing number of players are re-considering Ludwig now that the company has decided to revisit their heritage.

I have only seen a couple pictures of the new clear 3-ply shells. They DO look nice! But, where Ludwig is going to fail (I think) is, again, in the "little" details, i.e., no BB tone controls, no WeatherMaster heads, no P-83, different snare wires, etc. I would love to be wrong about my prediction...but, I don't think so. The main message I have been trying to get across is that, be they Camco, Ludwig, Way, Rogers, Gretsch or anything else that's a new "vintage" version of their former selves will fall short of the mark in one way or another -usually at a premium price. Since there is currently no such thing as a totally "made in America" drum set, the only real way to own an American drum set is to buy a vintage one!

-Heck, Tre from Green Day is playing a new BB.

Well, he's the perfect candidate to play one. ;)

-It is however, fortunate that drums generally didn't get cigarette burns or belt buckle rash.

Mine DID get cigarette burns back in the day...but that's a whole other story! ;) And I wish I had a dime for every 12" or 13" tom I have seen with scratches on it from rubbing the rim of the snare drum!

I hope this doesn't come across as sounding angry. I'm really digging the discussion. Mister T

Here's to continuing a passionately opinioned sort of spirited discourse...

I enjoy your comments, O.

Er, Lugs. :)

That's the truth right there! Plus Im sure the new Luddy 3 plys are going

to sound more modern. In fact I've already heard they do, and with a

list price of over 4000 USD for the 4 piece and 5000 for the 5 piece

I am not sure they are going to be a steal..

WOW! That's a LOT of money for a vintage re-make.

I'll tell you what....anyone who is interested....Give ME the $4K and a few months and I'll track down a really nice REAL vintage kit for you and I get to keep the change as my payment! x-mas1 How's that? Four thousand dollars for a new re-make of a vintage-style kit? OR...a real vintage kit? Of course, I might not be able to offer you a lot of finish options! heh heh Excited

Yes, the new 3-ply shells look a bit "too" good from what I can tell. They appear to be a lot more tightly made. They ARE very pretty shells in any case, but they just are never going to be the same I don't think.

Yeah, cool discussion! I love it! Finally! There is something to bat back and forth about something slightly "controversial".

Another thing that I think is kind of fascinating is that there are so many attempts to re-create vintage stuff. The argument used to be that vintage stuff was "rickety"...that it broke down...that mounts and screws got stripped out and became unstable...etc. We've heard all those stories by now. So, of course, when the companies started in with the vintage re-make attempts, they all had modern iso-mounts and modern bass drum spurs and modern everything -"beefed up" everything. Maybe if you were lucky, the wrap might kinda/sorta resemble a vintage wrap...kind of.

That was how it started. Next, "real" mahogany made a comeback on the scene and roundover bearing edges started to overtake the newer double 45s in popularity, too. There was a fever for vintage all of a sudden and it seemed that everybody wanted the older vintage style stuff back again. That struck me as being kind of odd when it started happening. "New" things were less interesting than designs that had preceded them by decades!

I thought, "Why had drums suddenly stopped evolving and moving forward with newer and better designs -the way they had done when the Big Four drum manufacturers used to try to out-do each other's designs on an annual basis?" Of course, I knew it was because of cost. :(

American drum companies got to the point where they were no longer concerned with out-designing anyone here at home. They couldn't afford to do that anymore, after all. They were in a scramble to try and come up with ways to compete with Asia.

The way that Rogers, Ludwig, Slingerland and Gretsch used to compete with each other got thrown out the door but they tried to keep their boats afloat any way they could....Ludwig's Standard line of drums was an initial attempt to compete...They tried to get involved with supplying schools with snare drum kits -whatever else they could do. But, after they saw the bottom line a few years in a row it was pretty clear they couldn't win against the Asian competition and so then it became a matter of, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" and inevitably, even American companies started getting most all their parts from Taiwan, too. And so, the forward-movement in the evolution of competetive drum design was halted in its tracks.

Things are now much more ho mogenous from company-to-company than they used to be. In one regard, it seems like there are a lot more choices, but at the heart of it, those choices end up being from a limited number of basic options. Nothing really stands out. Only the names remain to separate one drum from another these days.

All that and 2 cents more won't even buy you the foam on the top of a cappucino, but there it is, anyway. That's how I see it.singer

Peace!

It's all about choice. I choose to play old kits because I like the way they sound and look and the prices are, at this point, at or around those of current high end kits. At this point for me there is no reason to buy retro, I've got enough old drums in good shape.

From a performance standpoint, new equiptment has to have the edge. It gives you the ability to place each piece in just the exact position that works for you ergonomically. Sonically, there are some darn fine sounding instruments available. I greatly enjoy my Dunnett, Noble & Cooley, Trick and Ayotte and Craviotto snares. There is really nothing that anyone could say to me that would make me feel that there are "better" instruments out there.

My old Camcos sound beautiful, Rogers, Ludwig and Gretsch as well.

I won't need to add retro pieces. But I will say that some of these pieces look gorgeous for whatever that's worth.

Gary

Just caught this thread and read throug it, thought I'd add my 2 cents in as well. I think I look at this whole thing from an entirely different perspective.

I'm 20. I play in a rock band, and every once in a while we'll do an older cover, zep or hendrix. But the majority of our material is original and "modern", if you will. I own a recent (i'm pretty sure i bought it around 2004) Gretsch Catalina Birtch kit. I also own a '71-'72 Ludwig Mach 5 kit. Now I paid quite a bit ($700) for the Gretsch shell package, not to mention everything else. I know it isn't that high on the price scale, but it was the most I could afford on my measely budget. And the Ludwig I saved from the garbage man. I only put a few dollars into rims lugs and heads that it needed. They both sound great. But the Gretsch definately has the sound that I prefer. I bought it because it had the best sound quality to dollar ratio of anything out there. And they just discontinued the line. Go figure.

My main focus in the purchase of a kit was the bass drum. And I was pleasantly surprised by the Gretsch. It's 22x18 with an evans emadII and it's got the perfect blend of attack and low end. I do some double bass work, and this suits me just fine. I didn't think too hard about the snare when I bought the kit, because I had a very nice steel DW at home, but the snare that I ended up with this kit is again, voiced perfectly for what I want. I still like it better than anything else out there that I've heard. The toms sing with just the right amount of resonance and punch (8"-14").

But, the Gretsch stays in my home studio. I pretty much only use it to record. I have so much invested in it, that I don't want to risk anything happening to it.

I play out with the Ludwig. Now I know that my Mach 5 kit isn't the best example of a vintage kit out there, but for the sake of arguement... I have very little invested in it, and while i realize that most have quite a bit, it sounds great, and I have no problem playing out with it. It has quality of sound, looks cool onstage, and I'm not going to be out much if something were to happen to it. I use the DW snare with it, and it's never given me a problem. But it just doesn't jive with the mix if I were to record with it. Now I'll admit, these toms probably do sound better than the Gretsch's. They have that big powerful sound, but I'm not able to get as much of a range of pitch out of them as the Gretsch. But the snare doesn't have quite the tone that I like and the kick just doesn't fit into the mix as well as the Gretsch. It just doesn't have the same low end push, and I find myself over eq-ing it to compensate, and just ending up making it sound more and more unnatural.

So yes, there is a distinct difference between the old and the new, and that new sound may work well for some drum enthusiasts. And yes, the younger crowd is probably the group that will gravitate that way. But isn't this the group that will buy the most gear from these companies? It's in their best interest to sell to the drummers of tomorrow.

What about Slingerland? haha. Your toms would still have tack-on pigskin heads

if it weren't for them! Yes Sir

sabshga,

Choice is a good thing, but one day sooner or later, all the collectible drums of value will be collected and the choice will not be there any longer. I believe that is the point at which the value of real vintage collectible drums will go ballistic. I'm not talking about vintage anything...I'm talking about nice vintage gear that is complete and in good shape. And this will happen TOTALLY because that choice will cease to exist one day.

In any case, I also own many new drums, too. I will likely always have the choice of buying new drums...but not so with vintage gear -especially in the area of matched drum kits. Collecting just snare drums is one thing...Collecting complete, matched drum sets is a bit more challenging -QUITE a bit more challenging....but that's partly what makes collecting them more fun (for me).

I know this discussion started out being about the price of a Camco snare drum, but what I am referring to, at this point, is more about the general idea that sometimes the valuation of drums is related to their availability -or lack thereof...and also to the demand for these things. Vintage drums are a finite commodity.

Choices are good, but sometimes choices go away. This is the case regarding vintage drums. Camcos, for example have gone away...and that's why the prices are "stupid" for the people who want them...but, as I have tried to mention already...the prices for new gear are even more "stupid" because they cost just as much (or more) than vintage and yet will lose their value over time whereas vintage will continue to increase in value.

So, I might now ask, "What's so stupid about Camco prices, after all?" :)

I guess when I say stupid, I mean over the top. That's what a new high is, over the previous top. At the Chicago show a couple of month's back I was blown away by the number of $5,000 and up sets. I get the commodity theme. This whole thread started because $800-$1,000 seems to be the clearing price for non-pristine Camco snares on eBay. I think that vintage dealers at this point seem to be content holding inventory at a price waiting for the market to come to them. It is difficult to find a value at this point. From a speculation standpoint, it seems likely that good merchandise only available one at a time and by appointment should increase in value (x a global recession). It's just sticker shock for me because I haven't been doing this very long and moves have been severe in the last year.

Slingerland - I have one piece. A single ply 50s Radio King. Great drum. I am in the process of working a deal on nice Slingerland kit. My only experience playing them is a '58 Leedy mahogany shell kit that doesn't sound particularly great to my ears. So I didn't feel I was in a position to throw it on the list.

At this point my storage space is filled with a mix of players kits (all vintage shells), snare drums and a couple of good matched vintage sets See the gallery under my username). These are really for enjoyment at this point. I invest in other ways with greater liquidity and no storage requirements. That stated, I'm always open to something that seems to be value, is complete and has something asthetically pleasing about it. Value as in less expensive than what I have seen traded on eBay which is unfortunately my only reliable source for transaction information.

regards,

Gary