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It's Black... It's Beautiful... But is it.... Last viewed: 14 hours ago

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A Black Beauty?

Lately I've been hunting around for some information on Black Beauties and to see if I could find some information on a Black Chrome model in particular. I dug up an old thread by Vars_Molta who was asking if he had a Black Beauty (BB). My comments were that it was a "Black Chrome" model, which I also own. However, looking through the old Ludwig catalogs for the era shows that there was no "Black Chrome" model. My assumption , ever since I bought the drum, was that this was a 402 SupraPhonic with a black chrome finish and not a brass shell BB. Here are some of my reasons why:

I purchased the drum in May of 1981 from CMI for $200. If I recall right the BB's were going for around $400 (...street prices, but that may have been the engraved model???), some of you old timers may be able to support that figure. Also this finish was prone to a particular flaw that lead me to believe it was a "steel" based product. All of the "Black Chrome" drums I've seen on the internet exhibit the same flaw as the drum that I possess. I thought that brass was not likely to exhibit those kinds of problems, but I just saw a brass shell that was pretty "road weary" on the finish so it made me re-think that assumption.

The flaws on my snare look like there is rust under the black chrome process. My equipment is well maintained - I didn't rub it down after every session but I was very careful how it got moved and made sure it was always wrapped before being placed in a case for instance. Again these are the flaws that I've seen on these models on the internet as well as mine, and oddly enough the majority are near the upper portion of the shell just below where the drumhead hoop sits so I don't think they are user induced.

The receipt for my purchase back in 1981 states the model number as "417" which is the correct model number for that a BB.... So I got that going for me ;-) I did some digging here in the Vintage forum and found that some of the responses to the "is it a BB" question said to look for a "B" or a "BZ" stamped on the shell. I couldn't locate any such stamp. So I decided to do the trusty magnet test and end my questioning once and for all. So I grabbed one off the refrigerator, the business/vendor small advertising variety and it was lightly attracted to the shell, wouldn't go near a lug and really was attracted to the rim. I tried that same magnet on my 483 and as expected it wouldn't stick to the maple, then I tried my 552KY (hammered BZ w/ die cast) and it wasn't attracted to the shell as expected. I decided to get serious about this and find some scientific magnets (alright maybe they weren't scientific grade but they were small and round) from Home Depot and repeat the test. They magnets were not at all attracted to the shell but loved the lugs, tension rods, and rims.

So now I'm back to square one wondering just what the heck drum do I have??? I'll post pics so that you can view an offer an opinion. Especially love to hear from BB owners if there are similar flaws in their finishes.

Posted on 14 years ago
#1
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Magnet shots...

That pile of three are the ones that slid down the shell and were attracted to the rim.

There is a shot of the receipt as well....

Oh... before ya ask... that fuzzy stuff by the lugs is just some cotton packing. Hey, it's a Ludwig and we all know how noisy those lugs can be especially to a sound engineer!!!

Posted on 14 years ago
#2
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Flaws....

Here are various shots of the black chrome flaws common to this type of snare.

I'll have to come back and edit this post and include the flaw pics. The upload serice isn't being cooperative right now!:mad:

Check out post #38 for a look at the same type of drum, flaws and all.

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=7128&page=4

Posted on 14 years ago
#3
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I have recently seen a new BB with the B/O badge. It is currently at my local music store, Norman Music, Pounder would be able to stop in easily to verify this. It is my understanding that so/me new drums are sporting the re-issued B/O badge for factoiry seconds and the first quality have the Monroe Keystone affixed. This is not to say that your drums is new, but that some may be falsley represented as NOS or pristine unplayed....that sort of thing. I was appalled that he was asking so much when I am certain the first quality ones have the keystone badge, and I have seen them for what he is asking.

So, there could well be some BB out there that are in amazing condition, however are not the real deal, old school Ludwigs.

"Ignorance may be overcome through education. Stupidity, however, is a lifelong endeavor." So, educate me, I don't likes bein' ignant...
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Posted on 14 years ago
#4
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I would suggest that you compare its weight with a 6.5 ludalloy supra. If it is brass it will be heavier than the non magnetic ludalloy.

Posted on 14 years ago
#5
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From jonnistix

I have recently seen a new BB with the B/O badge. It is currently at my local music store, Norman Music... It is my understanding that so/me new drums are sporting the re-issued B/O badge for factoiry seconds and the first quality have the Monroe Keystone affixed. This is not to say that your drums is new, but that some may be falsley represented as NOS or pristine unplayed....that sort of thing. I was appalled that he was asking so much when I am certain the first quality ones have the keystone badge, and I have seen them for what he is asking.So, there could well be some BB out there that are in amazing condition, however are not the real deal, old school Ludwigs.

Well that is one of the main reasons for my posting. I don't have a desire to sell it; the drum has a certain intrinsic quality to me, regardles of the shell material. What is important is to inquire about the drum and pass the word. If these models are really Ludalloy and not brass then it simply aint a BB (even if I have a receipt that states it's a 417) and should not be represented that way and we should make sure unsuspecting buyers are not getting dupped.

I included a link to an eBay auction for a similar drum to mine and it is being represented as a "holy grail" BB and is priced a $2,000. It would be ashamed if somebody bought it for that price and it wasn't what they thought it was ... especially seeing that you could buy a model from the '20's for a bit more money. The other problem I have is the inflated price that they are driving here. Sheesh, come on already.

********************** BINGO******************

Was able to upload the images with some flaws. The 1st pic will give you some perspective of the size of the flaw in relation to the strainer mechanism and the rest are more detail shots around the drum (I think there are 5 flaw areas??? I didn't do an accurate acoount).

Posted on 14 years ago
#6
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From atomicmorganic

I would suggest that you compare its weight with a 6.5 ludalloy supra. If it is brass it will be heavier than the non magnetic ludalloy.

Dang it... shoulda' ought not have gotten rid of the ole' trusty triple beam.

Anybody know the composition of Ludalloy? I'm assuming it was nothing special, just the cheapest alloys available at the time of bulk manufacturer's purchase.

Posted on 14 years ago
#7
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I have this info on the main web site:

It is a good starting point for weight.

Another test is the Weight Test. The brass shell Supras weigh more then the Ludalloy version. How much I do not know for sure, but I have seen and heard the brass drums are around 8-9 lbs or so and the Ludalloy versions are 5-6 lbs or so.

It would be great if we all got together and weighed all of the different shells that were out there and created a definitive shell comparison with photos.

I have 4 or 5 different shells I can weigh, but no brass shells :(

David

Posted on 14 years ago
#8
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Are you talking about weighing just the stripped shell or with the "whole shindig"? I'll find some place to weigh that snare this weekend but just was wondering what you were thinking. I'd be willing to strip the shell and weigh it and then have them add the parts (in a bag) on the scale as well.

From Webmaster

I have this info on the main web site: David

Not sure where exactly to locate this... is it easy enough to slap a link in here? Thanks

Posted on 14 years ago
#9
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Sorry, I pasted the info directly in the post, from another page.

Yes, I think the shells should be weighed.

I have two different acros, three different Supras.

I want to weight just the shells and the parts also, but the documentation of the era is important.

David

Posted on 14 years ago
#10
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