I always get the comment "my god that bass drum is like a canon"..to which I respond dont stand in front of it. Violin

Rock guitarists are usually used to playing with rock drummers that don't understand dynamics ("What do you mean 'dynamics'? I'm playing as loud as I can..."). Use this as an opportunity to educate them through your ability to play as one of the group, and show them that not all drummers drag their knuckles.

In jazz gigs, everyone is expected to match the level of the piano. The horn players don't seem to have caught on to this yet...

Man, you are so right, sir!!! I've been through the exact scenario for years. Luckily for me, I am now playing with a group of "seasoned" musicians who have learned a few things over the years. Our music is all original and we all have input into the final product. I just wish this hadn't taken so many years to accomplish.

Brian

Simple answer: yes, in my opinion. And often it's justified.

My .02¢: I actually think it depends on a lot of factors. I "manage" a big band, a concert jazz band (I'm their creative producer) in addition to playing (we have an excellent drummer, so I'm the "relief" drummer, if you will - although I wouldn't want to try many of these charts without intensive woodshedding). Anymore, I think much of the volume thing is driven by the bass player, especially in a larger ensemble (using fender bass rather than double bass, which is the standard for most modern big bands anymore). The common refrain is "we can't hear the bass player", which causes the bassist to turn up, which then elevates the band up, especially the brass.. it's a vicious cycle, because often you lose the piano, who also turns up, and then it's awful, with piano standing out like a sore thumb. Some nights, the sound man adds to the problem by mic'ing the drummer to within an inch of his life, like a big funk band (omg) and then the saxes get lost, and the trumpets are blowing their brains out and...what a mess. So dynamics, while it's a great concept, can quickly get lost. It becomes painful, as everyone fights to be heard.

I do think the drummer has more control over this then most would think. In a rock setting, though, it seems as if, when you try to play dynamics, the guitarist looks at you like you're crazy, because it's out of his comfort zone - he needs that quarter note pulse. When you back off, no one else backs off with you and you wind up with three different "times". So everyone has to be on the same page. And there are so many different versions of "rock" for a drummer that a bass drum that sounds like a cannon might not work with a surf rock band, or a pop band, or even a country band, when it comes to the other players. It can be bewildering. Your sound needs to blend with the band and what they are trying to say.

In a big band, or even in a smaller jazz band with horns, dynamics becomes something that everyone has to treat gently, or you lose it. Often the drummer can initiate this faster than anyone - playing more softly, but with intensity (Mel Lewis, Davey Tough, Jeff Hamilton, even Steve Gadd) and keeping it there until everyone gets used to it often works wonders. With the big band, now I use minimal mic'ing, and the bass player works to get his sound to the trumpets but just so. Still trying to get the drummer where I want it; a change in drum set and snare helped immensely.

And a properly tuned jazz set (not a rock tune, and there is a difference, obviously) won't have the inherent volume issues that your typical rock-tuned set will, in a jazz context at least. Not that they can't happen, but it's harder, especially if the drummer is aware.

Lastly, I will agree with and reiterate caddywumpus' point: a drummer, who really is the quarterback of the band, needs to gently educate - as a musician, not as a drummer. That means working with everyone else, not just meekly accepting the idea that they are the cause of it. And that can be really hard sometimes.

John - over the years I've played every kind of music you can think of... it's not the style of the music that matters. I have just arrived at the conclusion (from long experience,) that -all- guitar players are just flatulent ego-maniacs.

It's not you... it's them!

John

In general I think you're right, although I have played with a few that didn't have that ego-maniac syndrome.

There's the root cause of the problem! Everyone fights to be heard. I've found that most non-professional musicians have an uncontrolable desire to hear their own instrument over everyone else. I think this stems from the fact that when we listen to live or recorded music, our ears tend to focus on listening to our own instrument and hear that above all the other instruments even though it is not actually louder than the other instruments. Drummers listen to the drum part and guitarists listen to the guitar part. This creates a skewed interpretation of the sound balance and what a piece should sound like, and results in some drummers thinking they're the lead instrument, or guitarists thinking they're playing a solo throughout the song.

I noticed this as a teenager when all the guys in my band were trying to learn a Tower Of Power track, and the bassist exclaimed, "Wow, did you hear that bass part?", and I replied, "What bass part? I didn't even hear a bass in that song!". And likewise, the bassist never noticed the great high hat work.

Since then, I've learned to recognize this tendancy to overplay and now play a full dynamic level lower in any group or ensemble, whether it be rock, jazz, or orchestra. I'd rather be asked to bring up the volume rather than asked to tone it down.

If there is a "fight to be heard" - it means that band mates don't understand each other. I faced such problem when I was "hit whatever you hit, just play grunge" drummer. Dynamic play should be practiced.

The new metal bands use triggered bass drums so the house P.A. determines the volume.

I personally HATE triggered drums. These guys are playing really fast but so light that they require triggers to pick up the playing.

If I wanted to play fast and light metal I'd have learned to play guitar.