Holiday is the overall model name used for Rogers top-of-the-line construction.
Citadel was a kit having a bass drum with only a tom mount.
In the 67-68 catalog it showed up in a 20,12,14 configuration in red onyx finish. It also showed up in the 70 catalog as a WMP 22,13,16.
In prior year catalogs, or at least in 64, it showed up as the Louis Bellson Citation.
Check the Vintage Drum Guide link in the upper right hand corner of this site.
Once again.......Drum outfit names were created by marketing people to sell their products through use of attractive photos in catalogs. Sometimes the name referenced the actual set up of a well known drummer. At other times a lot of drums were assembled, and given a name to make a catalog dreamer lust for a set up that no one really played. "But, it's on page 14 of the new catalog. So, it must be a real drum set"! Indeed, it was a set that someone played because that someone saw it on page 14, and ordered it just like that. When I was repping for Rogers drums during the last five years of CBS ownership, most of the drum sets that I sold were ordered as pre set outfits of which the dealers chose the colors that they wanted. Occasionally, a store would configure a drum set by choosing the individual components and colors for store stock or for a consumer. Those were the types of drum sets that I was most likely to buy before I became a rep. They are still the drum sets that interest me most in vintage drums. I think that half of my eight vintage drum sets might have appeared in catalogs when they were new. The other four sets would be improvosations in configuration made by the store or the consumer.
I'm already on record as not being a "catalog purist" in any form. But for me there is a difference between a modern website coining a term, and what was usage back in the day.
This configuration was not in the '67 Ludwig catalog, but my drum teacher and seller ordered it as a "Downbeat", but with specific 20-12-16 sizes. Receipt dated 4/4/67:https://www.flickr.com/photos/30559980@N07/6925762290/in/set-72157629432619022Entire 1967 Ludwig Catalog:https://www.flickr.com/photos/30559980@N07/sets/72157634828039753/
Fantastic! Thank you. I'm always on about the need for actual orders to really pin things down, but I'm usually disappointed. That order form has all sorts of interesting variations and some quite specific requests (down to the model number of the high hat stand).
I notice it also lists 3 Paiste cymbals: 18", 16", 14" hats. Have the cymbals remained with the kit? I'd love to have closeups of the logos. Getting a specific date for cymbals is pure...bronze.
Holiday is the overall model name used for Rogers top-of-the-line construction. Citadel was a kit having a bass drum with only a tom mount. In the 67-68 catalog it showed up in a 20,12,14 configuration in red onyx finish. It also showed up in the 70 catalog as a WMP 22,13,16. In prior year catalogs, or at least in 64, it showed up as the Louis Bellson Citation. Check the Vintage Drum Guide link in the upper right hand corner of this site.
So, the Citadel identification was an arbitrary shorthand moniker for a four piece drum set with a tom mount/no cymbal mount on the bass drum. The catalog savants can argue all they want about the drum sizes, and all be right or all be wrong. Oh...one more thing......the end user might have ordered the Citadel set with an extra swivo mount or an extra floor tom or extra something else. The consumer might have had the selling dealer make a modification with Rogers parts. Does that make it bogus?
Fantastic! Thank you. I'm always on about the need for actual orders to really pin things down, but I'm usually disappointed. That order form has all sorts of interesting variations and some quite specific requests (down to the model number of the high hat stand).I notice it also lists 3 Paiste cymbals: 18", 16", 14" hats. Have the cymbals remained with the kit? I'd love to have closeups of the logos. Getting a specific date for cymbals is pure...bronze.
Zenstat: Yes, the entire kit is intact, unmodified and detailed back to what I would almost call New Old Stock (NOS) condition. Although I've installed modern heads and identically matching rubber feat, 7 of the original 8 heads are now safely stored away (I broke the 16" batter head decades ago) along with the original rubber feet. You can see the whole set here, including an Excel spreadsheet with model numbers, serial numbers, cymbal weights, etc.:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30559980@N07/sets/72157629432619022/
I took hundreds of before, during and after photos in 2012 when I detailed the kit but obviously not all are posted. I'll sort through what you are looking for and PM you with a link, email address or some other way to get you the info. All of my receipts are already in the "album" linked above, including the 20" A. Zildzian 2,500g Medium Ride added on 7/17/70 (with the Rogers swan leg stand).
-Bob
Thanks for posting that catalog link. That was awesome!!
Looks like there was confusion at the warehouse when his order came in. Instead of getting a Downbeat with a 16" floor tom, he got a Super Classic kit with a 12" tom and 20" bass. I would have been :mad:
Laughing H
All kidding aside, the size of the drums has a lot to do with transporting and sound. I think Rogers issued a lot of 20,12,16 kits because the tonal range from 12 tom to 16 inch tom is wider and therefore a bit more versatile. The 20" bass was a bit more space conscious but had pretty good punch. The smallest sizes were associated with jazz for dealing with transportation in cabs and the limited stages of clubs in the years after the big band and dance halls had faded due to the lack of funds to support them.
Overall though, the larger sizes provide a bigger sound and project more easily in larger venues.
I always dragged out a smaller kit whenever possible because they are lighter, easier to reach around and overall more comfortable for the body size I have. I used them regularly for smaller clubs. They also tended to fit better in my smaller cars, like the MINI I currently own. But if I played a larger hall, I used a 22,13,16 because I didn't have to hit them as hard to match the volume of the rest of the band. I'd have to stick the floor tom on the passenger seat or something instead of in the back with the rest of the stuff when I went to the larger sizes, but you did what you had to do.
I also like to use vintage stands because they look nice and are lighter and induce less back strain. However, I had a couple of gigs this summer where the modern stands would have been handy because the wind was too strong for the Rogers swan-legged stands I had with me. I had to have a cement block on one of them and completely abandon the other crash cymbal.
(Then there is still the matter of the lopsided look of 20,12,16. Walking)
Zenstat: PM sent with Dropbox link to photos of cymbals.
