Here is my opinion:

I think that older American-made products have a certain quality to them because we used to take pride in our own manufacturing. This country wanted to produce goods that were better than anyone else's. And I think we did achieve that for many years. It wasn't any different when it came to drums.

I agree that basic drum/drum set design was pretty settled upon a long time ago and hasn't changed drastically. Of course, there is still the fact that each drummer may configure/position his/her drums in a unique way and that in and of itself is a strictly drummerly thing. You can't really do that with a piano or a Hammond B3! lol!

And, absolutely true that a good drummer can take any set of drums and make music with them....and, as you already pointed out, "visa-versa" as well.

However, I also like the aesthetic qualities of vintage drums...vintage cars...vintage furniture....vintage houses...and I respect many of the older American ethics that existed in the world at the time these products were made. I'm not old enough to have experienced all of it, but I was here before America sold its manufacturing. This may be completely out of line, but I believe that the general negative vibe in this country has to do with the fact that we no longer want the best for our fellow countrymen because the world has become so globalized now that we have no national identity anymore. In turn, the products become generic, as well.

As far as the minutiae and all of the research that has been done to find the magical drum formula goes, nothing is going to make a bad drummer sound better, but on the other hand, there is something magical that can happen when a good drummer plays on a good set of drums and is really feeling them.

One has to keep an open mind, too. Sometimes, players come along and change the sound of the drums of an entire era. Steve Gadd is one such player who took some hydrolic heads and...well, you know the rest.Car Driving2

Obsessing over the details is OK with me if some folks are so inclined. I am desirous of complete and authentic vintage drums. But, I don't obsess over washers and screws or other small details. My point is that a 100% perfectly accurate 1963 Slinger/Leedy Shelly Manne drum set is every bit as good as a 100% perfectly accurate 1960's Ringo Ludwig set or a 100% perfectly accurate 1950's Slingerland Krupa set or a perfectly accurate mid 1960's Nick Ceroli Camco set. Put any of these sets on a stage with a good soundman or in a recording studio with a good engineer, and a good drummer will make them sound equally good. The differences built in to the drums of the major brands during the same time period pale in significance to the competence of the drummer, soundmen, and recording engineers.

^^^I agree with you about that for sure.

RogerSling makes a good point about "drum forum" "vintage drum forum". Please foregive me if I missed the mention of Collectors somewhere in this thread. Collectors should obsess over the small details. Collecting is cool!!!

In general I agree with you...however, there is something to be said for playing on a drum kit that you personally feel is constructed and set up exactly how you prefer it. What does it matter whether or not these small differences change the tone of the drums for the average audience member? If they make a difference in sound to the drummer then why not be passionate about them and talk about their merits. Its all for fun. For some, fun involves being passionate about the details.

James

I agree with this, but also I would like to point out that if you set the drums side-by-side and tuned them up the different companies would have (if even slightly) different-sounding drums. I agree that every screw has little to do with the sound, but I agree with Jonni that the shells and the heads and the angle of the bearing edges and whether die-cast hoops are used causes a difference in sound. That difference might be slight if every other factor (head choice, size and tension being equal) on the drums were equal; however, the fact is, some drums have a wider tuning range, some are more individual because of manufacturing inconsistencies, and some have a different sweet spot than others. The lugs all have different masses on them, shell construction was done in-house or made to spec by shell manufacturers.

Leedy, it's like the difference between a 50s and a 60s Les Paul neck or a difference between the sound of a Fender Strat and a Fender Telecaster. You could put the settings all the same and get close but there are some settings that are individual to that particular guitar.

But for the most part, it is all about individual expression. Color choice, brand choice, etc.. Part of expressing our freedom to choose what we play on. True different drummers sound different on different instruments. The same drummer may well sound different on a different brand of drums, if he's dedicated more or less to playing a brand, based on his opinions and his mentor drummers of the past and present who play on these brands of drums, etc.

There's a fairly large difference between, say, a set of Gretsch and a set of Ludwigs. Slingerlands might be closer to Ludwig because they've got re-rings and 3 ply shells. The bearing edge on Rogers is more pointed and round on top at a smaller point (talking about 60s drums as a point of comparison) and the paint inside is different. Ludwig went through trying to produce huge amounts of drums after Ringo and the wrap is in the shell at the seam, creating an out-of round drum, generally. Gretsch have the 6 ply no re-rings and silver paint, sometimes rounded over edges sometimes 30 degree inward, whatever.

Most people on the forum have a degree of knowledge and the details go beyond simple drum recognition, it also does have an effect--even if a small one--on the sound of the drums.

Modern drums are all the same to me, though.

My old drum teacher used to say drums is drums is drums. I used to be all into the whole debate. The truth is there are millions of drummers out there and millions of drums. Old drums, new drums are all good. There are things about old drums that make them cool. The new drums have cool things too. My Yamahas were made in the 80's and I would have to say probably spent a few years in a garage. They are still round and sound amazing. Their overengineered drums are really awesome and their hardware is second to none. My old Ludwigs are amazing too but their hardware is crap and they are very fargile drums. I would never dare take them out and gig on them regularly. When I do use them I use a separate snare stand or will get a suspension mount because the rail cosolette tom holder is junk. They sound fantastic though. They are also fantastic looking with their Black Diamond Pearl finish. I mean, if you want to spend 7k you can have DW make you a new retro classic 4pc kit with the same type of shells Ludwig used and with better hardware and then no one hassles you about modifying something because it's "vintage" as some sacriledge. Most of the new stuff is way overthought out. As long as a drum is round it generally will tune up and sound pretty good barring it has good heads and non-bent hoops. All the vertical horizontal grain and blended woods is a marketing campaign to sell you something that doesn't sound as good as what you remembered. I see the same guys playing these drums and they always sound amazing whatever drums they play. Ever heard Steve Smith sound crappy? Ever hear Buddy Rich sound bad? Ever hear Virgil Donati sound bad? They all played different stuff from different eras and they always sound good. Drums is drums is drums.

'O' Lugs: I couldn't agree more. Globalization has taken it's toll, and I'm not sure that the national pride of manufactured goods will ever return...

I like vintage drums because I like vintage drums. That's it. You can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but it's my opinion.

That being said, I also think 'some' of the new(er) drums are amazing, and sound damn fine besides. Jonni has a major point as well. The heads (hoops, how it's mounted, etc...) all make up a wide variation of how a drum sounds. I just don't stress over it. I find 'the spot' and thump the drum. Simple (for me anyway, but then I am simple).

Vintage drums are just drums. At one time, they weren't vintage. They do sound different than new drums of the same quality, but then there have been gobs of changes both in manufacturing and wood quality. I'm not really sure I could win an argument about vintage drums being better sounding than new, they just sound different... they were made differently, so they should sound different.

As far as stressing over fifty year old manufacturing processes and the like. Well, that's where the collectors come into play. I'm not 'really' a collector, but I like to have a bit of knowledge about stuff. I like drums (and old tube radios and old wind up clocks and watches) so I endeavor to find out about them.

Where better to find out about something? Why, you ask the collectors. The collectors will cherish the most insignificant data about something imaginable... and thank heavens for that. Many times a collector will have more readily available information at hand than the past ten CEO's will have put together. The collector will know about the tiny nuances that make a drum (or a widget) a drum (or a widget). The folks working at the plant are attempting to make a living. They may be able to give you minutia about their bit of the overall operation, but not the whole. The collector amasses the entirety, and I've never known a real collector that was unwilling to share that information. Thus, you have what may have been information lost forever sitting in someones files, or better yet, posted on the web for folks like me.

Your question about 'Over-thinking Drum Construction' is valid. But then when I want to know something about some drum that's found it's way to me, I turn to the guys that 'Over-think' it... 'cause they know... :2Cents:

That is really true.. As annoying as it is, the details are really what collectors are all about. Then you've got the 2 sides to the story for musical instruments which are both collectible and playable. Sometimes the info a collector gets isn't important at all to a player, sometimes it is somewhat useful to a player. There may be overlap but it boils down to the individual.

I think there`s a huge difference in the quality of drum building. While I play boxes, cans, kitchen cabinets and sofa arms pretty well,..nothing beats a great drum. Some drums shake violently when played, others don`t. Some heads make divits easily while others don`t. Some stick woods are good for rim shots and some break. The thickness of a drum dictates the ringing, and sustain. The type of wood used also matters how long your drums will ring and or last for that matter. When it comes to snares,..the world is open to how many sounds you can create. The length of any drum separates it from the one next to it just as the radius does.

I play Sonor drums and can tell you that they are built like a tank, minimal shakeing, unique sound, user friendly, require no tools for set-up and breakdown, and tune very well,quickly !!

There`s world of difference when you mic up a kit because you can ajust the compressor and then depending on what amp. you have make them sound any way you please. But when you don`t mic. a kit,..construction and player are the keys !! If you had your way,...would all drums be electronicly ajustable ?? (so talent is nullified)