Didn't think my original question posted would spark off a political debate that wound up locking the post. Anyhow, I think Dan Boucher's response makes a lot of sense.
Dan Boucher knows vintage drum sound and is especially versed in the Rogers department amoungst many others.But i do agree if the mics are good and in proper possition there should be no problem with the vintage gear kicking butt.Great post Dan!
Wayne
There will always be a market for vintage instruments. Drummers grow as musicians over time and they sooner, or later discover that vintage instruments offer them a sound and a look that few modern kits can deliver. Every generation will produce a certain amount of guys that prefer the vintage drum sound. Until a modern drum company begins to reproduce the sound of old Camco/Geo.Way, 50's Gretsch, 60's Rogers, 50's Ludwigs, Slingerland Radio Kings, etc. there is going to be a market for vintage drums.
John
Well here is my thoughts on this. As for the prices being on the decline, I now that in the case of rare and ultra rare snare, once you get to a certain price point you ostracize a lot of potential buyers simply because they can't afford these drums. There are a lot of collectors out there that buy these drums as investments, but the prices can only get just so high before they have to come back down. I also thin that there are a lot of younger players that have interest in these drums but from a playing perspective. I collect a bit myself but I can say that while there are a lot of drums out there that look great they also need to sound great as well and I can't see paying $4500.00 for an ultra rare snare unless I can play it. A lot of older collectors in other areas (outside of drums) have also seen declines in prices because many of the collectors from the older generations that have driven the prices up have now passed on and the younger players and new collectors can't afford the very high prices on some of these things. Price plays an important factor.
The other half of the price problem is that the collectors who now want to cash in on their investments don't want to loose money so they sometimes ask ridiculous prices. Granted, on any given day, something is only worth as much money as someone is willing to pay for it. In many cases, the drums that are fetching top dollar are also in exceptional condition but then anyone with the same or similar drum thinks that what they have is worth that much too.
A lot of younger players have shown an interest in vintage gear but they want to play it and not buy it to stick it on a shelf and stare at. These players are often on a budget so we go back to price issue but there is definitely interest. Everyone dreams of owning a vintage Black Beauty but at the end of the day, how many people can actually afford to shell out the $2500.00 - $4500.00 that they sell for.
The other factor that plays into this is availability. This is a factor that I don't think has been addressed yet in this thread. I know that modern technology has made it much easier for drum collecting to become more international than local. Add to that the fact that there are tons of shows out there on antique restoration and resale as well folks who dumpster dive, tag sale hunt and buy storage lockers, everyone under the sun has taking to trying to find that diamond in the rough or rare item in their attic or basement that is worth money. This has made finding a lot of these uncommon and rare drums a lot easier to find. Ebay and other similar site play a huge factor in this. I have sold many vintage drums that have gone to Europe, Australia and South America but 20 - 25 years ago we were still limited to our local tag sales, thrift shops etc. so things were staying local.
Bottom line, the interest is out there but I think that if you want to see more sales then prices on many things have to remain reasonable.
Although it's been said, trends are playing a big role here. The fashion 10+ years ago was (from my memory anyway) studio guys/engineers were all over Yamaha RC's or vintage Gretsch. Nowadays it seems everyone is going mad for Ludwig. Only recently did i have a "Ludwig rules" conversation with a sound guy. Here in the UK vintage Ludwig's stock has risen sharply whereas Gretsch seems to of dipped a lot, maybe apart from those little 18" jazz kit's which still fetch. Younger players seem focused on Ludwig too.
I'm selling my 60's super classic right now for £1550, which I bought 8 years ago for £900. Just after that I bought my SS Gretsch kit for £900 and that's worth probably still the £900, maybe just tipped into £1000 from what I can gather from ebay.
It's quite obvious from some comments that some people are offended that there are other people who collect vintage drums that do not get played on a regular basis if played at all. Do you folks feel the same way about people who might have 300 knives in a collection that never cut anything? What about people who have 100 guns in a collection that never shoot at anything? What about wrist watch collections that sit unused? Can anyone use all 1,200 salt and pepper shakers in a collection? Pencils? Thimbles? Toasters? A drum collector might spent $2,000 on an uncommon snare drum that sits on a shelf above his computer. He looks at it, and feels good while reading and posting to this forum. Someone else would love to gig with the drum, but can not justify spending over $300 for it. I find myself right in the middle on these matters. I have been very fortunate to buy some great vintage drums at very low prices several years ago. I have done many swaps of drums I own for drums I want to own. My vintage drums that I have kept (after selling off four sets to downsize into our new retirement cottage) would sell for prices ranging from $500 for a set of rehabbed orphans to $3,000 for a pristine four piece early 60's set. My other drum sets and a few fairly rare vintage 50's and 60's snare drums would fetch another few thousand bucks. I don't gig any more. I don't play my drums very often. I love to look at them. I'm not going to say that I'm sorry if someone doesn't like that because I don't collect to please them. Please do with your drums as you please, and don't complain to me about me doing what I want to do with mine. Some day, my wife and/or my children will do as they please with any drums that I leave behind. Come to think of it.......that's probably how most of my vintage drums became available for me to buy.
Strange Leedybdp, but I never read anyone getting annoyed or even offended on that hoarding point. Still as you mention it I have more drums and cymbals than I could ever play at once. Still most of it gets used at some point. Whether on a gig or a recording. I would probably have more if I had the room.
As you said people will literally collect anything. And sometimes you may wonder about some peoples sanity in all of it. It's like a psychological itch which needs more and more of the same thing bought and stored, yet the itch never ceases and the storage gets bigger and bigger. "I have 1999 pepper pots, just one more, just one more...........Aargh! Now who was it that said that the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over expecting something different to happen.
This is coming from a guy with 30 snares, 60 cymbals, and a drum magazine collection that spans 30 odd years! lol
Here in the UK vintage Ludwig's stock has risen sharply whereas Gretsch seems to of dipped a lot, maybe apart from those little 18" jazz kit's which still fetch. Younger players seem focused on Ludwig too.
Plus Gretsch's newer drums are simply amazing in design and look. They've gone all round badge and their wraps etc these days are really exceptional. My Renowns are awesome. I still think drummers hear Ludwig and immediately want vintage, not the newer Legacies..
What the the hell does it matter. If you want a vintage drum you want a vintage drum, it doesn't matter if you play it or just look at it. IT IS A VINTAGE DRUM.Walking
Plus Gretsch's newer drums are simply amazing in design and look. They've gone all round badge and their wraps etc these days are really exceptional. My Renowns are awesome. I still think drummers hear Ludwig and immediately want vintage, not the newer Legacies..
I totally agree.
It's quite obvious from some comments that some people are offended that there are other people who collect vintage drums that do not get played on a regular basis if played at all. Do you folks feel the same way about people who might have 300 knives in a collection that never cut anything? What about people who have 100 guns in a collection that never shoot at anything? What about wrist watch collections that sit unused? Can anyone use all 1,200 salt and pepper shakers in a collection? Pencils? Thimbles? Toasters? A drum collector might spent $2,000 on an uncommon snare drum that sits on a shelf above his computer. He looks at it, and feels good while reading and posting to this forum. Someone else would love to gig with the drum, but can not justify spending over $300 for it. I find myself right in the middle on these matters. I have been very fortunate to buy some great vintage drums at very low prices several years ago. I have done many swaps of drums I own for drums I want to own. My vintage drums that I have kept after selling off four sets to downsize into our new retirement cottage would sell for prices ranging from $500 for a set of rehabbed orphans to $3,000 for a pristine four piece early 60's set. The other three drum sets and a few fairly rare vintage 60's snare drums would fetch another few thousand bucks. I don't gig any more. I don't play my drums very often. I love to look at them. I'm not going to say that I'm sorry if someone doesn't like that. Please do with your drums as you please, and don't complain to me about me doing what I want to do with mine. Some day, my wife and/or my children will do as they please with any drums that I leave behind. Come to think of it.......that's probably how most of my vintage drums became available for me to buy.
Wow, what a statement!
Personally, I could care less if you play your drums or use them as end tables. Speaking for myself, drums are meant to be played, if I ever get to the point where I don't play anymore, any gear I have will be sold. I'd rather have them being played by someone rather than sitting around for me to look at. I mean, if I lose my hearing, there's no point in keeping a big fancy stereo around just to look at.:eek:
