Time frame for Slingy and Ludwig? 50's to 80's I guess.

Please reread this. You are swinging your bat into the wind. I'm neither your foe nor your detractor. I was just curious about where your take originates.

This is a good place to share views and information. Please do not take a defensive posture with me. It's just odd.

Some people (including many of the Ludwig rockstar players of the 60s) thought Rogers (which were noticeably absent from your post talking about bad hardware) had excellent hardware. They certainly were innovative, even if their hardware wasn't the choice of some. Swivomatic tom holders of the 60s, Memriloc of the 70s.

I agree about Yamaha tom arms, though, they are probably one of the greatest advances.

Gretsch hardware was not as well thought-out, first the hardware was simply walberg & auge, then in the 70s they came out with the ill-advised ball-socket tom stuff which is why early stopsign badge stuff is usually priced way below other era Gretsch.

They got their heads straight with the Techware hardware, many believe. Hardware advances by most American companies have been at best, hit and miss, though.

That being said, for Gretsch, when your bread-and-butter drum sets are only a 4pc with single rack tom, hardware isn't as much of an issue. When you have a Hal Blaine setup with 9 tomtoms, hardware becomes more important.

I feel I was pretty clear actually about the hardware. I meant stands, pedals, seats, etc. I just meant that prior to the 70's, most of what was made was kind of light and somewhat flimsy. When I first started playing drums back in 82 that was the kind of stuff I had. Flat based stands, strap drive Gretsch pedal, some Ludwig 70's cymbal stands, a basket snare stand, Speed King, stuff like that. Most of what I had was 60's vintage and I didn't care for it. I have a trap case with all Ludwig hardware that came with my 66 kit and while I look fondly at what lies in the case, I would never want to use it for gigs. I apologize if I struck a nerve. It was not my intention. Rogers came out with really cool stuff regarding hardware. Their drums are awesome too don't get me wrong. Same with Camco. I really like old Camco drums. I love drums period.

I think the die-cast hoops more than compensate for any issues with hardware, though (for Gretsch).

Let me go on to say I think most of the heavy duty hardware Japanese or otherwise is way too heavy and over-engineered for what it's designed for. I think for the most part a stand should just be strong enough to do it's job under normal circumstances. It doesn't need to hold 380 lbs if the ride cymbal and toms weigh 25lbs. A snare stand should hold up your drum and be adjustable. One of my favorite snare stands was a Ludwig which was made in the 70's. I still use it to this day. It is strong, functional, and needs a little over a foot of space in my trap case. I used to have a Premier triloc hi-hat stand that was awesome. It had these ridiculous adjustable spiked feet and when they broke off it became a large heavy paperweight. The pedal played silky smooth though. It was designed and made in the 70's I believe. I have a dw 2 leg hi hat and thought it would be close to the old Premier. Not by a longshot. I love old Camco pedals. I have the newer stuff too but I still love the simplicity of the Camco original design.

the jasper shells also were made of thinner plies and weren't glued

in a way that their competitors were. if you look at a jasper shell you

will notice that they are glued at a 45 degree angle thus the different

sound qualities. i have friend that was an endorser and fellas it wasn't

only maple and gum plies they used but what ever was hanging around.

fred gretsch has short arms and long pockets and he wasted nothing!

if you look at tama and yamaha shells today you will see that they

make their shells in the same way that gretsch does.

I personally don't like diecast hoops.. I feel like they choke a drum. Perhaps this is why people gravitated towards fibes when they first came out with their wood drums, essentially a gretsch drum with triple flange hoops, giving a more open sound (?)

You are spot on with that comment, my friend. My first import kit was a set of Tamas I bought in the 70's and I've always felt that they had some of the best hardware of any drums I've ever owned and certainly better than the domestic products I was familiar with at the time.

Solid, stable and designed to be easy to operate and to hold up under steady use.

Once more...I have to say you are absolutely spot on. I posted a story here of how my Slingerland kit I purchased in the 70's came to me with the wavy edges you describe. I sent back all of the toms and they sent me back shells with perfect edges and I got a letter from Larry Linkin, then President of Slingerland, apologizing for my troubles (see attached)