Did you know that the old version of the traditional grip was actually more like a grip that you would use to hold a shovel handle or something like that? Seriously!
You mean with the thumb & 4 fingers over the stick?
I thought that the thumb & 2 fingers over 2 under was odd, 1&4 over feels really weird!
Hoppy a simple computer search will bring page after page on this sucject, that was my point with drm2m here's just one link there are hundreds of them! http://edrumline.com/articles/traditional-grip
I totally get your point that there is plenty of info out there, but we are here for the communication (generally speaking) and unfortunately those pages are static and won't respond. So, that's all I thought he was doing was just engaging and making acquaintances through the conversation and re-sparking his interest.
As we all well know participation in the threads is strictly voluntary regardless of the how well beaten (discussed) one thinks the dead horse (topic) is.Me, I'm extremely data driven and look to these venues either to impart or gather empirical (preferred) and theoretical information (and I have yet to find the great single source or repository of knowledge). I also enjoy reading the opinions of others which is the main reason I even to show up here, and if I choose to jump into the fray ever the more better. I think this should be expected as people drift in and out trying to search for a good source of data or stimulating conversation.EDIT:I for the life of don't get the "tradtional" grip one bit, especially Buddy's comment on it. I have a friend that swears the left hand is more "sensitive" when the stick is placed perpendicular to the forearm in the traditional grip rather than parallel to the forearm in match grip. I love to kid him responding that if its so "sensitive," which must be better, why doesn't he play both hands in the same fashion!It is interesting to me that the placment of the drums is rather odd and stuck in some sort of time warp especially when viewed from an ergonomic standpoint. Arguably the highhat is the most struck/played instrument a drummer has (at least in the context of a song) but look how it was placed and played. Why "open hand" playing didn't catch on over "crossed hand" is beyond me and with the advent of cable HH stands I see very few people taking advantage of the opportunity to evolve.
Hoppy to this post's content, the Info you just questioned is in this entire thread??? Traditional grip the very word explains it's origin and reason for being, the Drum set or trap set evolved from the field drum, the field drum angle facilitated the traditional grip due to the angle the drum set at while slung from a shoulder strap, match grip will not work for the old field drum mounting style,Buddy Rich's setup makes perfect sense, forum follows function, but came from the vaudeville and drum corps school of reasoning! I originally started off playing traditional grip and used it for over 20 years, then started playing match grip in my early 20's, but I set my kit up to take advantage of that grips advantages also! Ok I'm going to test your history of the Instrument, you ask a stated question how and who evolved the Hi Hat??
Another continuation to the history of this thread! http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/arts/music/04army.html?_r=2&hp also a side note, People generally learn more or absorb more Info from having to work or seek it out! if you aren't reading the links given then??
Hoppy to this post's content, the Info you just questioned is in this entire thread???
No, this was just in general and not even restricted to this thread, forum or even the subject that this forum covers. I was kind of thinking about the Ludaloy thread too which is why I included the "data driven" comment. I just assumed some would be as intent, adamant (OK call it anal) as I am about the breadth of certain subjects... Hmmm I guess I am so focused on this level of detail from the nature of my work and from other hobbies. Hell you should have seen the data and documentation related to modifying a stupid supercharger for a car I own in another forum... it'd make your head spin!
I'm hip to the development and evolution of the stick grip (and I've shared the history with the friend I mentioned who believes traditional is best). I've even used the bi-pedal effciency arguemnet with him too. Consider the walking motion and the uniformity in limb motion to gain movement...then focus on the arm swing... they both alternatively go foward not one shooting out to the side while the other goes foward. That's what I thought drumming should be like as well, that is uniformity; setting up the equipment so that it adapts to the body rather than just setting up the equipment and having the body adapt to it (and the snare is the best instrument to illustrate this since it is so central).
I saw a comment Buddy Rich made, which is available on YouTube, discounting the matched grip and I thought it was a really superficial explanation which just lead me to believe that he didn't know what he was talking about -- wait don't flame just yet!!! --- or that he didn't take the time to think about it. I believe that latter is the case.
I'm curious to how much exploration was done by the jazz and big band pioneers towards alternative set-ups. Or was the purpose served (supporting music -- just learn it and play along) and I guess once ya learn it and adapt to it, then it is difficult to change or even see a need to change.
Also was a drummer role so minimized that it didn't warrant that kind of consideration .... (and this also lends itself to the equipment development)? -- we've all heard the joke "that the band consists of 3 musicians and a drummer"
Of course I realize a lot of energy and consideration has been done on technique and sticking in the early days and it is good that it is still evolvong with additional/new/innovative changes in technique and equipment... it's just sometimes feels the the continuim is so sloooow without the perspective of time.
As far as the hi-hat history goes I have read the inter-web stuff about "clangers," "low-boy / low-hat," "sock cymbals' and good 'ole Barney Whalberg.... been too long since I've read any MD magazines that I couldn't even remember if that subject was covered or not way back when I was a subscriber???
vintagemore2000
I suspect Max Roach was capable of playing both traditional and matched style.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvdU5R7ywQ4&feature=related[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AunZY0fcxRs&feature=related[/ame]
I am not a drum historian…as you appear to be.
I started playing around age 12 and I am now 64.
I was taught the traditional grip by my first old drum teacher in elementary school.
I don’t remember seeing many of the great drummers playing matched style back in the 60s…I suspect the style evolved over time. (Check out the old black and white videos of the great guys back then.)
I appreciated the link you attached explaining the evolution of the two different methods of holding the sticks.
David
David, thanks It helps me relate to whom I'm debating with, to know your background, your actually older than I am I'm soon to be 53 Ugh! a lot of the greats used both style for what ever occasion needed or was to arise, generally the match grip was used for more power, that's why rock and fusion picked up this style! I come from a musical family almost my entire family plays some type of Instrument, and I had an excellent and task master band Instructor! we took superior honors in every contest we entered and marched in the Mardi Gras parade! I am very competitive and an A type personality, the latter not such a good thing! Plus I'm a history freak! you don't know where your going if you don't know where you've been!
You mean with the thumb & 4 fingers over the stick?I thought that the thumb & 2 fingers over 2 under was odd, 1&4 over feels really weird!
Yes. And I know you like to see the proof, Hoppy, but I don't know where it was that I read that. If I find it, then I will post it up. But I thought, "Wow! That's REEEEAAALLLY weird!"
Another continuation to the history of this thread! http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/arts/music/04army.html?_r=2&hp also a side note, People generally learn more or absorb more Info from having to work or seek it out! if you aren't reading the links given then??
HA! Great link... That article has a link into it for one of the "specialized" bands called the "Four Horsemen of the Arockalypse"
That totally reminded me of when I got a call from a Marine recruiter trying to get me to sign up for the Marines (this is the year they re-strated the registration for the draft). I politely told him I wasn't interested, and he asked why, and I told him I was going to pursue music. He starting telling me about the wonderful marching bands and the big bands and what not. I told him it wasn't my style of music and I wouldn't be a Marine if ya paid me.. he shouted back, "We'll see your ass when it gets drafted" and promptly hung up on me before I could yell something equally stupid back!!!
However if he had shown me something like the "Four Horsemen of the Arockalypse" and their new music strategy I would have been waaaaaay more interested in signing up.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ciC8A8Fq_s&feature=search"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ciC8A8Fq_s&feature=search[/ame]
Yes. And I know you like to see the proof, Hoppy, but I don't know where it was that I read that. If I find it, then I will post it up. But I thought, "Wow! That's REEEEAAALLLY weird!"
LOL... I don't need a pic... I can assume the farmboys didn't have much time for really grip technique back then ;-)
