Exactly! And again, my apologies for helping to move it there.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMVTOxELjfU[/ame]

Bump.I just found my copy of Harry Canganys book,"Great American Drums,and the Companies That Made Them".

Now I remember where it was, that I read about some Camco drums,leaving the factory with the wrong badge or NO BADGES at ALL.

Harry also talks about Rogers hardware being installed,at the Camco factory,by Camco

In his book,chapter 1,page 6,paragraph 3.I'll just quote the last three sentenses."Way's badge was black over brass;Camco's version was white over brass,and that combination remained for the drums built in Kansas and California.Collectors favor Oaklawn built drums.It is not uncommon to see Camco shells with missing or incorrect badges."

Page 7,first paragraph;"Quite a few Camco drums came out of the factory without tom or leg holders.Many others were built at the same factory with ROGERS mounts."

I knew I read it somewhere reliable.I accept the fact that Harry is a long time collector,acknowledged expert in the field of vintage drums,and published author.Rick Van Horn and Ron Spargnardi also assisted in writing this book.

Good enough for me.

Steve B

Steve: Brilliant investigative work!

I'd heard about the badge issue from a few sources over the years, and of course from the original owner / original purchaser of my badge challenged kit. I had also heard about the Rogers hardware that was an unadvertised option available 'if you asked'.

I've also heard of, but not seen, Ludwig hardware used. I'm thinking the Ludwig was owner or shop installed though, unlike the Rogers, which was available from the LA factory.

It's always best to keep an open mind about manufacturing processes in any field. Anything can be special ordered, and nearly anything is possible. This is especially true with downward spiraling companies that are gasping for breath, and grasping for market share / cash.

Nothing is EVER finite. There will always be exceptions.

Thanks again, Steve. Bravo! Well done!

At the risk of fanning the flame war, I'd just point out to Slingalud that the source about my very specific and, at best, parallel story about the stray LA Camco shells and hardware was the owner then (and now) of the Drumstick shop in Copenhagen, Denmark that put these PJ Drums together.

The source (he said) of the shells and the hardware was Gon Bop - if these came via Camco or from the (at that time) new purchasers DW (who, you may be aware, used Gon Bop timbale shells for their early brass snares) I couldn't say.

But I'm guessing the guy was just imparting some fairly specific knowledge and not trying to obfuscate the history of this minor drum company. And as he pulled out a couple of drums worth of lugs and other rare Camco parts and emphemera, I'm guessing he may have been telling the truth.

I'd just also state that while Harry Cangany's book seems to be a wealth of knowledge on many brands, the Camco section has more than a few inaccuracies, amongst them that all Oaklawn Camco shells were painted white inside (only wrapped drums were painted white inside), that the oval badge was used from 1962 and that Rogers parts were fitted in the factory (which the general consensus from dealers from around the time seems to confirm didn't happen). Watching his buying patterns on ebay from some years back it looks like he started buying Camco after the book was published which might account for it.

All this a bit irrelevant if the person who asked the question has already left the building but I thought I'd make my last comments crystal clear.

Photos would've been nice. A science-based approach seems best.

Just as an addendum to my post,the information about the Rogers hardware being installed at the Camco Factory,comes from multiple sources.One of the most reliable of which,is from Ben Strauss,who was one of the guys responcible,for maintaining the Rogers/Camco relationship,and a driving force behind Rogers in the 60's

Rogers didn't see Camco as a threat to their drum sales,and only saw a benefit in having their hardware installed on other companies drums as free advertisement.

Steve B

Steve,

Even though it sounds super-pretentious we are, in our humble way, just modern archaeologists. We're trying to put together information on a specific subject from found objects and information from other observers but rarely from first hand sources (which should be always carry the most weight).

There was a thread either here or on DFO recently (which I, of course, can't actually find now) where a couple of original dealers were cited as saying they'd never had the option to have Rogers hardware fitted from the Camco factory but did it themselves in their shops. That was the basis of my comments. They're first-hand sources but your Rogers rep is also a first-hand source so I guess they contradict each other. This will be one of those eternal questions that I'm sure we'll spend many hours debating and ridiculing each other over.

The PJ Drums thing I did a little research on - seems they did as few as 20 kits, (only about 12 of them with Camco lugs, the rest with tube lugs) and these were almost entirely bought by Denmark's very small professional player community, which is, I guess, why I've noticed so many. But they did up to 150 snare drums. They were putting these together as late as 1988 which though they had some actual Camco shells to start with (as I was told by my first-hand source) they probably switched over to generic Keller shells which they finished to their own specs.

Trying to get some pix - currently locked out of my very old registration on the Danish drum site trommeslageren.dk

I know Frank's Drum Shop would order drums as virgins and then put whatever mount on the drums that the customer wanted. They would also take drums from kits on the floor. For example if a customer came in and wanted to order a 14x14 Camco floor tom in red sparkle and they had a Camco kit on the floor in that finish. They would simply sell the floor tom and then order another one for their kit on the floor.

So just because you bought it new as a kit doesn't mean it came as a kit from the factory!

You know,Sam Ash...way back in the day ,did the same thing.When I bought my Ludwig standard kit in 71,it came standard with a matching wooden snare drum,they all did.But I wanted the model 101 chrome plated snare.So they let me take my drums home,and in 3 days,I took the train back to the Kings Highway store in Brooklyn ( O..A),and picked up my chrome drum.

The sales man said,that my drum was in a different store,and had to be trucked over.

As far as Camco installing Rogers hardware in their own factory,I know it's a bit of a stretch,but in the 60's and 70's.drum companies did plenty of non conventional things,to keep the public satisfied.

I have a few Tama superstar drums,that should NOT exist,but do.The last one will require too much space,but I have a 10x9 with a factory Yamaha tom mount.

I'm not even going to get into some of the crazy Ludwig stuff I've seen.

Antipodes my mate,this very much like archaeology.But so much of our aquired knowledge is questionable.There always seems to be an exception to a rule,which is why I've learned,if nothing else,that NOTHING is eched in stone,and there are always exceptions.Just because we haven't seen something,dosen't mean it that it can't exist.

Steve B

Just to add even more fuel to this fire. LA Camco would drill for Pearl hardware, the type that was a Rogers copy but Pearl failed to understand the mechanics. Camco would do this at the factory on purpose! I know this because I once owned a 22/12/13/16 kit that was drilled this WAY and those tom arms are far worse than the Walberg & Auge arms and posts that Camco used.