"Excellence, maturity and enduring appeal" -- well said! I think you've hit on the defining characteristics as closely as I've ever heard.

As for whether "vintage" is simply defined by the drums that were around when the drummer was young, I dunno. I came of age in the 90s, and even then I felt that "vintage" referred to classic drums from the 70s and earlier. I still do.

Having come of age in the 70's, I'd say that is a remarkable, incredibly keen and telling observation, Section2.

Thanks for sharing your point of view.

Thanks!

Say, I'd love to see pics of your Geo. Way and Vistalite kits if you've got them. The idea of the Blue Monster is making me salivate... :)

Not so long ago my 1972 Fullerton Rogers Butcher's Block Londoner was not considered worthy of the vintage communities interest. Only pre CBS warranted attention. It now appears that things have changed. In my humble opinion there was a definite point in each manufacturer's history when standards dropped significantly and the quality of the drum was compromised. However, I would be curious to discover when this community sets each company's individual date. My Gretsch Centennial, for instance, made in the early eighties at the deQueens plant, rivals anything I have ever heard for sound, but would definitely not be considered 'Vintage' yet I don't think. Comments are eagerly sought.

I don't know if I agree that standards dropped for every company. I have a set of '90s Yamaha Maple Custom Absolutes and they are quite nice, the shells are as good as anything vintage I've played and the hardware is definately not only sturdier but also more precise.

I think someday they will be considered vintage. I played a set of 60's Yamaha and wasn't overly impressed.

I think some companies dropped their standards and some continued to make improvements. I do think Ludwig and Gretsch lowered their standards, and Rogers, and Slingerland went away. Companies like Tama, Pearl, Yamaha, just keep getting better.

thoughts????

There is a lack of research here. To say that Yamaha Absolute Shell makeup is as good as anything vintage demonstrates a lack of knowledge. That's not an insult, by the way. Vintage drum layups were not precise and in no way clean. They used old growth wood and animal glues and burlap and tire tubes and whatever else they had available to get the job done. It was a hands on handmade drum. It's precisely those variables that give the drums the character we enjoy these days. To compare modern precise shell construction to the vintage shells of yesterday (sans Rogers) is futile. Apples and kittens.

You are comparing a vintage Yamaha kit with Luan shells to the modern Maple Absolutes? Again, Apples and kittens.

As far as individual company standards being lowered ... I invite you to read the company histories. Those will outline exactly what occurred within each. Rogers didn't lower it's standards, nor did they just go away. It was an intentional negative business move that allowed the company to be purchased for less money. Ludwig and Slingerland and Gretsch were sold to large companies years ago. What those companies did after that is irrelevant. They were not the same drum manufacturer as they were when family owned. Now that we have another Fred Gretsch behind the wheel, quality is once again paramount. Our eyes are open and we watch.

Tama, Pearl, and Yamaha are not getting better. They are following the improvements in design and manufacturing. That inherently impacts the individual quality of each. If you trace drum history, you will see the rough beginnings of each of these MIJ companies. The selling of the big three and the internal breakdown of Rogers left the door open for the MIJ manufactures. Tama, Pearl, and Yamaha did not usher in the increase in quality. Quality was a natural progression. It's design growth and improvement. The fact that drums are being designed better is not shocking. If a current manufacturer used the burlap and wood supports that Slingerland did back in the 60's ... well, they wouldn't be in business long. That was old school drum building at its best. You can't duplicate the vintage drum. It's precisely the lack of quality that is key. That seems to be lost on so many people.

I think we are confusing what is a collective drum and the age of the drums. This might sound like an oxymoron to some but it isn't. I am an old drummer that still plays and agree with mcjnic about what is considered vintage. But, I still keep my eye on newer drums that MAY become collective in the future. I have played Ludwig, Slingerland, Rodgers and Gretsch, drums made in the 50s,60s & 70s and they all are quality built, and have their distinct sounds, but the drums made in the 70s 80s & 90s were built for their OWN distinct sounds and have held up to the changing demands of the type music of the period, some better than others, and these drums will probably be considered more collectable in the future but not VINTAGE. As the new generation carries on collecting drums they will eventually call what is vintage as ANTIQUES ( I know I hate it too ) to be shown and not played. TOM - Drummer

PS: Playing thru the years of DISCO was a trying time and I also, to this day, dislike DISCO.

One of my all-time favorite kits that I've ever owned was a 1997 Pearl Masters Custom African Mahogany Limited Edition kit in 22/8/10/12/13/14f/16f/18f. That kit was unbelievable. It was 4 thin plies of PURE African Mahogany with Maple rerings. Un-freekin'-real tones. Beautiful shells, high quality lugs and hoops, perfect edges ... just perfect. It's one of the very few kits I miss.

As beautiful as it was, it didn't play like a vintage kit. The whole design paradigm was duplicate the vintage sounds of yesteryear. They failed miserably. BUT, they succeeded beyond belief. They designed a modern shell that played warmer, deeper, woodier, and more resonant than anything out there. That's an accomplishment of note.

Anecdote time:

Some of you will remember when McDonald's was a drive-IN. You could get: Hamburgers, cheeseburgers, french fries and milkshakes. They used to actually fry real, quality hamburger meat and toast the bun so it was nice and crisp and...tasted good.

McDonald's is still around, but it's not quite like it used to be back then. There are more items on the menu, but the overall quality has dropped. The main thing about McDonald's, now, is that it's cheap, quick and convenient. The "novelty" of the drive-in is gone and replaced with the drive-THRU (through).....and quality be damned!

So, how does this relate to the question of "What makes it vintage"? Well, I'm hoping that it shows that "vintage" relates to the magical (and now almost mythical) time when there was more of a drive to be unique within your given industry -be it hamburgers, cars, furniture, houses.....or drums.

Things like individuality and uniqueness became too costly. And, when Asian brands showed that they could produce high-quality drums for less money, it became the swan song of American brands forever after.

It was a matter of "If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em!" after that. And that's why even American made drums, now, look like anything else out there. Most of the components of all the drum brands are made at the same factories in China. The only thing that signifies any real individuality, now, is in terms of branding. Nobody is "making" drums in Elkhart or Chicago or Fullerton or Dayton. It's all coming from Taiwan.

I would say that if you can understand the era, then it's very clear what separates non-vintage drums from vintage. But, when it comes to formulating a clear definition of terms for everyone else, it can be more ambiguous. In terms of drums, it doesn't just have to do with the chronological age; It has more to do with the period of time when America's perspective on "How things are done" changed.

Now, just like with the expanded menu at McDonald's, we have more to choose from than ever before....but none of it seems to have the same appeal or "fun" to it. It's just another commodity that has been taken for granted. We're bored with all the shiny new toys we can easily get our hands on. We still have the most fun when we're poppin' wheelies on our old stingrays! Now, THAT'S vintage! ;)

/rant

Brilliantly put, O-Lugs. Stingray's ... man those were cool ... banana seat with extra tall sissybar and all.