Warmth Projection and that fat tone quality that is what my 1965 Rogers Tophat set had that no other set i have ever played has had my 69 rogers were good but still not the same and i am sure it was the wood used in the shells that wood is no longer available and to me all modern drums are flat in their tone and lifeless, the 6 ply Ludwig set i am playing now has alot of that old vintage sound but not quite as warm but it does have the projection and volume i Crave....

This is all VERY interesting to me as I am always curious as to why drums sound the way they do.

I am curious as to Purdie's comments about being let down by his DW experience. In that case, did you get a chance to work on the drums (tuning, head selection, etc) when you played them? Were you in a decent sounding room? Was there only one experience?

I am not asking as a means to defend DW drums, I am just curious. As an example, I have often had a kit set up in my office for the fun of it. Snare drums sound very thin there, kick drums have a "papery" impact quality from the drummer's perspective, especially if using a coated head and floor toms are pretty thin sounding as well. Interestingly enough, 12" and 13" mounted toms usually sound pretty good to great. All of this from every kit I have put in there: DW, Spaun, Ludwig 3 ply, Slingerland 3 and 5 ply, Premier and Pearl. The lone standout was a Pearl 18x22 Sessions series kick drum from about 2005. I don't know what it was about that kick, but it just had "IT". In any room it was in and whether it was single headed or double headed it was loud and punchy. It truly felt like you had an audio monitor when you played it. No other kick drum I have had (including vintage) has come close. All of that from a mid grade, 8 lug bass drum. I saw a photo from a recent high profile recording session and the kit in use was Ludwig keystone toms and a Pearl Sessions 8 lug kick drum. I would have been really confused had I not owned one.

I am really curious as to whether anyone has spent any quality time with the DW Classics line as my assumption would be that this might be a determining factor as to whether or not modern drums can produce a vintage tone. ...and tell us more about Allegra kits!

> Really?? I thought it was all in the player.

Yes, 'really.' The drum and how it was constructed and which materials were used has everything to do with the sound it produces. I'm talking 'physics', the physical properties of a drum and how it affects sound, not 'style.' John Bonham is John Bonham, nobody (unless it's all they practice,) is going to sound more like John than John himself. It's true that good drummers can make bad kits sound good, but that's because of their command of dynamics. Their drumming sounds good even if they're playing on cardboard boxes. I'm talking about the factors that contribute to the sound the drum itself produces, not the one produced and influenced by the player. I'm talking apples, you're talking oranges. Two different topics. Your point is valid, it's just not what I'm talking about.

Squint - I got to play two DW kits. One was in a music store (the owner knows me and he let me sit down and play them a bit,) and the other kit was at a guys' house where I went to buy some drums. Both kits were tuned well, good spread on the toms and they sang a pitch pretty good. What I didn't like was; how 'dry' both kits sounded. They both were loud and had good projection with lots of attack, but no real warmth. Kinda flat is the only way I can describe it. Neither kit had that FAT (warm, round) sound I look for. They played fine, they just didn't sing for me. I have a good 'touch' on the drums. I know how to pull the sound out of them and how to use the drums natural range of sounds when I'm checking one out for the first time. I honestly was simply not impressed with the two DW kits I sat down behind and played. My 63' Luddies kick both of those DW kits in the a$$ for the natural sounding warmth and resonance of the tone they produce and for the rich woody character of the sound. For tone and the pure 'musical' quality of the sound, both my Camco's and my old Gretsch kit blow DW out the door.

Just 'my ears' and personal preference is all really. I'm not knocking DW. However, I -am- praising; vintage Ludwig, Camco, Gretsch etc.

John

Ok check this out.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJuWDsJkYLc[/ame]

This session was done by a friend of mine, a UK drummer Neal Wilkinson. What kit do you guys think he played for the session?

Actually I'll tell you. It was a Yammy Absolute. 12 14 20. In my opinion he is a player with a golden touch.

My D-Dub Collectors are surprising warm, although I don't believe they have the width of tone of my Vintage stuff. The D-Dub Jazzers do though. I think they will start to come out even more in 20 years time. The 24" kik is massive with that full wide open boom with that low hint of sub.

My 70's Ludwig supers are fat, although the 13" rack can give me trouble if its not tuned just right with fresh heads. The 22" is the best bit. The 60's Downbeats are lush, amazing in the studio. A very melodic kit, although note really a warm sound.

The 70's Gretsch kit has mainly been played at home, and only on a few local pub gigs. But I believe from what I have found so far that the sound straddles the best of Vintage and Modern. I think that kit will be my goto for studio in the future. The RB Gretsch just has its own vibe. It looks cool, but has a real un-compromising attitude in its sound, especially from the Toms. The Kik drum is big sounding for a 22.

My Rogers big R's are huge and warm. In truth an A/B test with the Toms revealed that although really similar, they had more tone and articulation than the Collectors. I think that DW were gunning for that sound if the truth be told. The Kik drum isn't so hot though.

70's Black Beauty is hands down the best snare I own.

geko wrote: The RB Gretsch just has its own vibe. It looks cool, but has a real un-compromising attitude in its sound, especially from the Toms. The Kik drum is big sounding for a 22.

I couldn't agree more with your review. I have a late 50's RB 3-ply 20" bass drum, every time I play it, I'm impressed with what a BIG sound it has! The first time I played the rb kit, the toms were the drums that really grabbed me by the boo-boo's. They are musical sounding, they sing when you hit them and then they cut/get out of the way, just when you want them to. There really is a "Great Gretsch Sound!" It's not just clever advertising.

Never played a DW jazz kit, I'll have to look for an opportunity to try one out based on your review. I'd like to hear them up close and personal.

John

This is all so very interesting to me. If I was a little more handy with wood working, I would be buying shells and cutting bearing edges like nobody's business. I have heard it said that the double 45 bearing edge that is so popular today came into being simply so the manufacturer did not have to swap bits or routers in the edge cutting process. Two passes with the router and a light sand on the edge and you are done. Hmm... I will say my 2 Spaun kits that do have that edge are the easiest toms to tune that I own. The overtone series is limited, and the tuning is really precise. As to overall tone, certainly not as warm as my Ludwigs, Slingerlands or Premiers, but it is a great sound as well.

So is it a question of new methods of manufacture, new trends in sounds, or the lack of old growth wood that keeps new kits from having a vintage tone? With a vintage round-over edge, you have more wood on the head which will darken the tone and reduce sustain I should suppose. Any other thoughts on what the bearing edge and shell layup bring to the table?

The same principals hold true for vintage guitars Old growth Maple is almost a impossible animal to find now and that is what alot of vintage drums and guitars were made of Rogers Jasper shells are just plain to die for...

Hey Mike, I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the top-line vintage drums from the past with a reputation for sounding great were made with Jasper shells. George Way, Camco, Gretsch, Rogers, to name just a few, all based their drum-lines on Jasper shells. Different lay-ups, but all those great sounding shells came from the same manufacturer. Whatever they were doing in Jasper, was obviously being done right!

> Any other thoughts on what the bearing edge and shell layup bring to the table?

From everything I've ever read, or learned, the shell/bearing edge to head contact point is basically the key determining factor in terms of over-all sound. The best sounding drums I've ever played are my Oaklawn Camco's. The very first thing I noticed about them when I removed the heads, was the size of the round-over at the top edge of the drum. Shallow back-cut, maybe 30 degrees, but a big, lazy round-over that maximizes head to shell contact. The transfer point for vibrations from the head to the shell happens at the bearing edge. If the edge to head contact ain't right, the drum isn't going to sound right. Geo. Way used a bearing edge profile that gives his drums a unique, almost characteristic tone/sound. I would like to learn how to cut those edges myself and then put them on any shells that came my way, just for the fun of hearing if they sound better with those edges.

Great subject to explore...

John

That's another easy one! They would flat go broke in labor costs! The 1st thing one notices are those bearing edges and how they were designed to make the whole shell resonate, not just an inner cut with a slight outer edge cut like DWs edges...Secondly, IMO The 3 and 4 ply Camco's are a matter of taste and don't nearly resonate as much, or as long, as the thin 6ply shells. Camco led the way when it came to the deep, resonant, arena rock sound that is so popular even today.

Has anyone built any drums using Keller's Vintage Mahogany shells? 6 ply mahogany and polar (no idea how that is laid out except it appears that both the outer and inner ply are mahogany) and 10 ply maple re-rings.