I have change the badge and color of the drum since this photo, it has double 45 degree bearing edges, with hot carnauba wax coated hand polished bearing edges, it's a modern sounding drum but has a good deal of warmth very comparable to DW's New Mahogany /maple drums. found a pic of what it now looks like I now have brass triple flange rims on it, not the clip rims shown. This Keller Vintage mahogany shelled drum is one of only a few wooden drums that can sit behind my Ludwig stainless steel kit, without sounding like crap.

Just so everybody has a clear idea about the difference between bearing edges, here is an illustration of the most common ones. At least we'll all be on the same page while we discuss the subject.

Note the increased head to edge contact that the vintage round-over offers. It really explains a lot in terms of why it produces the tone that it does.

[IMG]http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n632/PurdieShuffle/bearing_edges.gif[/IMG]

Many modern drums use the double 45's. Mark's drum (in the previous post) is a good example as it has the double 45 edges.

John

Purdie,

Thanks for the illustrations. Since i am not an overly skilled woodworker, do you think one could re-create a vintage round over bearing edge with a round over bit on the exterior edge, a really wide, shallow bit on the interior and some light sanding? Is it more complicated than that?

You'll need a router table with a good fence and a little know-how. Otherwise it is completely do-able.

John

Purdie, you opinion that DW shells had projection is the complete opposite of every kit I've ever had to use. DW was the most supplied backline kit and the one I had to add to the monitors the most. While they didn't sound bad, they certainly did not have the projection and sound of my 6 ply Luddies. They just were too quiet.

Here's a thought from yours truly. Steve Smith. In the 80's he used those thick Sonor Signatures, Phonics, Lites and Hilites for all of his playing. Rock, jazz, etc. To me, his drums always sound great. They were always tuned the same for each setting, even for the rock stuff.

I think tuning ability has as much to do with a drum sounding good as the edges and shell composition.

Just my 2 cents...

Which leads me back to my original post on this......drums have a tuning range that they like to be in, the player is the one with the tuning ability. The greatest sounding drums in the world will never reach their full potential if the player has no clue about how to tune, set up, and play his instrument properly. I still say drum sound is 95% player, 5% shell makeup, bearing edge, head choice and particular tuning, and that this argument about bearing edges, shell makeup, brand, etc is moot.

Does anybody really think that when our vintage drums weren't vintage, that players took this into consideration then? I think not. They chose what looked good, or what their favorite drummer was playing at the time, or what they could get a good deal on.

Except for the fact that any particular drum mfg with same head set up, tuned with the same methodology (not necessarily the "same" but using the same methods to find the aforementioned sweet spot or, more correctly, sweet spots) will not sound the same. They will sound similar, but they will not sound the same. That is the point of this thread. Purdie was interested in seeing what particular sounds (drum mfg) were intriguing to us and why. Along the way we have delved into the realm of why vintage kits sound different than most modern kits. The bearing edge has a huge impact on the sound of a drum regardless of player, tuning ability and head choice. That is why we have to repair damaged edges and re-cut some of the crappy MIJ edges. That is simple physics and is at the heart of the drum building art.

We all get that tuning and technique play a big role in the sound of a drum kit. I put multiple players on the same kit all day long and the resulting sound changes quite a bit from player to player. That would be a different thread altogether. We are talking about what makes a drum sound the way it does regardless of player.

Purdie hears a certain sound in his head and heart that he is not thus far able to achieve with a modern kit. His technique is the same on the kits he plays which means the difference is the drums themselves. I for one find that fascinating and want to understand why that is.

As to how drummers chose drums back in the day: some chose based on price, some on who gave the better endorsement, some because they liked the look, some because it is what their hero played, and some chose their drums because of the particular sound they could achieve. There have been FAR to many posts on this forum regarding the sound attainable by a particular drum mfg to simply write that off as it doesn't matter because it does.

Un-rant.

> We all get that tuning and technique play a big role in the sound of a drum kit. I put multiple players on the same kit all day long and the resulting sound changes quite a bit from player to player. That would be a different thread altogether. We are talking about what makes a drum sound the way it does regardless of player.

Thanks for picking up the ball on that one. I tried to explain to Ludwigdude that his point is well taken, but it's not what is being discussed here. Thank you for 'doing a Clinton' and explaining it in easily understood terms. I just get frustrated when I have to repeat myself. I'm not a huge fan of beating dead horses. lol

And yes, two router bits to cut a vintage edge. 30 degree inside cut, 1/8" round-over bit for outside. Both cuts are always centered on an interior ply. There's a bunch of how-to's and tutorials on cutting bearing edges available online. Google it. There are some great resources out there.

> I think tuning ability has as much to do with a drum sounding good as the edges and shell composition.

Agreed. However, for the sake of conducting a discussion on the subject, we need to 'assume' a base-line, ie; it becomes a given that the drums being compared are in-tune and are good examples of that particular companies instrument offering. Start adding in another bunch of variables and chaos rules! LOL Just trying to keep it simple/basic for purposes of discussion. We can all agree that there is a 'Ludwig sound', a 'Rogers sound', a 'Gretsch sound' etc. using that stripped down base-line, will permit us to make some valid, albeit subjective, comparisons. And... of course all the other factors come into play, player style, heads, tuning etc. Just trying to adhere to the KISS concept - Keep It Simple Stupid.

John

For this discussion, Purdie, I suggest we assume a control group to lessen the variables and dial in the focal point. We could all assume that the drums, modern or vintage, are being played by someone who knows how to tune, dynamics, can play like no tomorrow, and all the heads on every kit in the world are the same. This would bring this discussion into the wheelhouse of what I believe you intended to dissect.

Just my two cents!

toodles

Drumhack Guitar Dude ManGuitar Dude ManWalkingband3Party

> I suggest we assume a control group to lessen the variables and dial in the focal point.

Frontier gibberish? I never 'talk down' to people. I assume a certain amount of native intelligence in the reader. Sorry if my language was a little too florid for anyone. No need to mimic. You ever feel like "you're talking to a box of rocks?"

Just talking about -basic- drum sound, as in; the sound a drum produces based solely on materials and edges alone. Leaving out all the 'extraneous' factors. 'The Ludwig sound' as compared to the, 'Rogers sound' etc.

I guess it's a tough concept for some to grasp... seems to be causing a spot of difficulty in certain quarters.

Takes a lot of the fun out of a thread when you have to explain the basic idea behind it over and over. Are we on the same page now? I can only hope.

John