Pricing Rant/Rave - Page 2 - Vintage Drum Forum

Posts: 5176 Threads: 188

WOW! heh heh heh VERY impressive!

I can only respond by saying this. I have collected data in my own "magic-based" way and have determined a plethora of charlatan Jazzette monikers out there. So, when it comes to complete and original Jazzette drum kits, I guess I could throw out about 99% (just a guess based on magic) of those listed due to the fact that so many of them are "tampered" with, rewrapped, NOT really Jazzettes, NOT complete kits, NOT matched kits, just the bass drum, etc. In which case, IF I did that, I would have a much narrower field to average. Your terms only account for what anyone is calling a Jazzette and not the true kit, itself. In fact, there might not even be one legitimate Jazzette kit on that entire list. The mahogany Jazzette that sold for 1899 on a BIN was a real Jazzette shell pack, however poorly the finish had flaked off or not and, to the people who know real Jazzettes, it was a steal at that price. So, yeah, I'm not surprised to see it go for that price, either! ;) I wanted to buy it, myself, but my vintage drum budget is spent and gone for a long, long time. Whoever got it is a very lucky person. Still, that snare drum was not matched. The only Jazzette I have seen with factory matched Supra and it's original hardware package, to date, is my '69. And, until I see another one that's more complete, mine is going to remain at the extreme high-end for Jazzettes. Who says? I do!....for now.:Santa:

Statistical information is only as good as the legitimacy of the input. If what is input into the calculations is not correct or relevant, then the output is neither correct nor relevant.....

....That's where magical information comes in!DOH

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God

Posted on 14 years ago

#12

Pounder

Joined 18 years ago

Posts: 560 Threads: 17

Excellent post above, Zenstat. I have had a minimal amount of statistics in college, (I minored in Economics) and would be curious as to what statistics formula you would devise to come up with a price range for a Jazzette set. A simple glance at all the jazzette sets and their prices, I'm actually struck by how consistent they are, not how inconsistent they are. But I'm not a human calculator or a statistician. Still, I think I enjoyed reading through that list of data more than reading any of the prior posts on this topic ;)

O-lugs: Methinks you're mincing drums..

Posted on 14 years ago

#13

Posts: 5176 Threads: 188

But then again, the list is completely incorrect from which to try and formulate an accurate valuation of a legitimate Jazzette kit! here's why:

Jazzette 12/14/18 recover silver sparkle repercussions has new L arm $1,499.00 14 bids eBay 6-Dec-05

burgandy jazzette w/bongos hack on bass requiring restoration 66-67 offset rail + cymbal mount $1,500.00 12 eBay 12-Dec-05

jazzette green rewrap and 400 brass shell May 21, 1971 all b/o no serial $1,800.00 BIN eBay 12-Dec-05

14 floor tom rewrap (jazzette)-??? WHY??? $226.50 21 eBay 22-Feb-06

12 rack tom rewrap mount changed (jazzette)-?? Again, WHY??? $48.00 9 eBay 22-Feb-06

12 rack tom rewrap mount changed (jazzette) $47.00 11 eBay 22-Feb-06

12x18 rewrap mount changed (jazzette) $204.50 17 eBay 22-Feb-06

jazzette 12/14/20 later series bo 1802017 walnut cortex $700.00 BIN eBay 4-Mar-06

green rewrap jazzette now sans snare b/o $1,225.00 9 RNM eBay 17-Mar-06

green rewrap jazzette now sans snare b/o again $1,500.00 1 RNM eBay 1-Apr-06

Mahogany Jazzette on cymbalholics 3 holes on kick $1,450.00 cym 30-Nov-06

"Jazzette red sparkle w/jazz fest wrong tom mount modern 14"" $2,560.00 offered online 23-Dec-06

Jazzette purple re-wrap 12/14/14x18 wrong tom mount $3,059.00 31 eBay 1-Jan-07

mod orange ludwig modern jazzette w/wood snare new inner plies $1,199.00 BIN eBay 11-Jan-07

jazzette 1736385/1736475/1736462 6 ply $1,199.00 1 eBay 28-Jan-07

Jazzette 12/14/18 silver sparkle rewrap and reworked w/13 tom $1,075.00 RNM 22 eBay 28-Jan-07

Jazzette 1968 Jan 13, 1968 rewrap black over silver sparkle $1,668.72 16 eBay 18-Mar-07 uk>??

Jazzette 12/14/14x18 pastolui pulled at 1009 8 bids-??? pulled 8 eBay 9-May-07

Ludwig 12x18 jazzette bass goes with kit above champ spark center mount (factory) -LIE! some holes plugged $399.00 1 eBay 14-Oct-07

Jazzette 12/13/14/12x18 silver rewrap 63/64 assembled? Share rail $1,750.00 21 eBay 25-Nov-07 us>france

Ludwig Jazzette 12x18 WMP kick like mine b/o 1743804 $710.00 16 eBay 9-Dec-07 >maley59

Ludwig Jazzette WMP b/o 6 ply shells $1,500.00 online 16-Dec-07

"Ludwig Jazzette Blue Oyster added 13"" 16"" toms 14"" camco? Clear interiors" $1,280.88 7 eBay 9-Mar-08

Ludwig 12x18 jazzette bass red spakle pre serial $375.00 24 eBay 1-Apr-08 thai>usa

Ludwig Jazzette Gold Sparkle fairly rough extra holes $1,400.00 1 eBay 26-Apr-08

Ludwig Jazzette rewrap champ sparkle b/o 109**** 3 plys $2,000.00 1 eBay 10-May-08 >japan

Ludwig jazzette blue sparkle tom mount changed to pole 1965 $1,225.00 31 eBay 30-May-08

Jazzette 1969 maple finish $3,600.00 -1 eBay 8-Jul-08 poppy76 bought it GOOD ONE, POPPY!

Jazzette 12/14/14x18/14 pieced together wrong tom mount $1,025.00 22 eBay 26-Jul-08

Jazzette 12/14/12x18/14 1056741,1056743,14=1559039 3 ply wmp $1,400.00 -1 eBay 30-Oct-08

Ludwig Jazzette 1969 maple $3,151.99 15 eBay 30-Nov-08

Jazzette 12/18 missing 14 $521.00 6 eBay 9-Mar-09

Jazzette 12/14/18 rewrap and Ludwig tom post $700.00 BIN eBay 10-Mar-09

Jazzette ks gold sparkle changed FT mounts and legs w/originals $1,600.00 CL-NY 22-Mar-09

Jazzette 12/14/12x18 rewrap SS early ks 1969 rail (ex repurcussions?) $2,000.00 -1 eBay 25-Nov-09

Jazzette early 70s BO clear interior damaged shells WMP $743.00 17 eBay 12-Jan-10 ship $75

jazzette w/matching 3x13 austria blue sparkle + extra 12 nice ks $3,764.88 1 eBay 6-Mar-10 eur2800

Jazzette 12/14/18 mahogany 1968 nice $2,900.00 22 eBay 18-Jan-11 world ship

Jazzette Bass OPB w/pole $977.00 27 eBay 20-Feb-11 world ship

Ludwig Jazzette sky blue pearl w/cym arm 1971 ks668530 1969? $3,995.00 online classicvintagedrums

Jazzette Bass chanpagne sparkle w/pole converted from consolette 1964 ks115166 $400.00 1 eBay 24-Feb-11

Jazzette 12/14/12x18 1977 BDP something fishy with tom badges missing b/o1359874 $1,615.00 12 eBay 10-Feb-11

Jazzette 12/14/18 and 4x14? snare Mahogany finish (decaying) and snare finish distinctly lighter (and fishy? plus I see 3x13) $1,899.00 BIN eBay 30-Mar-11-as we discussed earlier...3 X13 does not belong

Believe me, when it comes to legitimate Jazzette kits, there's almost always "something" about them. Out of all those statistics, only a fraction is actually applicable to the question of evaluating an average price to expect to pay for one. But then again, there are a few kits on that list that would need further research in order to determine their legitimacy.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God

Posted on 14 years ago

#14

Posts: 5176 Threads: 188

From Pounder

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Methinks you are a little naive when it comes to this subject.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God

Posted on 14 years ago

#15

Posts: 5176 Threads: 188

Pounder,

Let me ask you this:

If I call a 12/14/22 a Jazzette kit, then is it a Jazzette kit?

If you answer "yes" then the discussion is over.

If you answer "no", then why would you ever, in a million years, think that the information compiled on that list is any more relevant than my statement that a 12/14/22 is a Jazzette? Almost every single one of those citations is basically irrelevant because they have little or nothing to do with complete and correct Jazzette kits.

See, if people can throw around that term at will, then it can mean anything to anyone at any time, can't it? That list takes into consideration too many incorrect terms.

Define the terms BEFORE you consider the averages is all I'm asking.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God

Posted on 14 years ago

#16

Guest

Of course I don't use all this data to asses the expected price of pristine all factory original museum quality Jazzettes. But it is very useful for assessing several things. Here's a list off the top of my head:

[list]

prices for flawed Jazzettes (interesting in its own right) going for $1800 - $2200 with exceptions

[*]the proportion of flawed Jazzettes (high)

[*]the proportion of inaccurate descriptions (high)

[*]creating a list of things to watch out for in descriptions (which might help both buyers and sellers do a better job)

[*]a lower bound for what nicer Jazzettes might fetch (greater than $3500 in today's market)

[/list]

I don't feel bad about contributing to any of these ventures.

Posted on 14 years ago

#17

Guest

From Pounder

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...would be curious as to what statistics formula you would devise to come up with a price range for a Jazzette set. A simple glance at all the jazzette sets and their prices, I'm actually struck by how consistent they are, not how inconsistent they are.

I mentioned medians and trimmed means earlier, as preferred estimates of expected price. With the Jazzette data I've given I wouldn't use anything other than the data I've presented. It requires reading and thinking about all the different "flaws" of the sets, not a simple calculation. There isn't enough data such that presenting it all gets out of hand for those who are interested.

In terms of my decades of professional research, to establish a range I might use the 95% confidence interval for the median (yes they have confidence limits like means) or some other robust estimator. I tend to like the whole robust estimation approach. But if you want something you can do easily in a spreadsheet just sort the data. Then you can find the median and similar values easily by counting. You do need to filter out any data points which really shouldn't be there. For example, with my major research project (the Paiste 602s and Sound Creations) you need to filter out cracked ones because their value drops to $10-$50 where intact ones might fetch $150-$400. So you really don't want to include them (except in a specific analysis to find out how much their value drops! :D). Anyway, once sorted you can fill in these five values and that pretty much does it:

highest

half way median to highest

median

half way median to lowest

lowest

Most would sell in that center of the distribution (the two half way measures). A few will always sell at the extremes. Sometimes for obvious reasons of being mint or in poor condition, sometimes because there is just lots of variability.

I've got several textbooks on my shelf around the corner and I could probably look up the special names Tukey (or his followers) give to what I'm calling those "half way" points. But I'll just post this as is because it isn't really all that relevant to most people here (and since O-lugs apparently doesn't believe in evidence or statistics I should have warned him earlier not to waste time :D). Pounder: If you want to know a bit more about the whole area of robust stats give me a PM and I can hook you up. Might even be enough stuff in Wikipedia.

Posted on 14 years ago

#18

Posts: 5176 Threads: 188

From zenstat

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O-lugs: Thank you for bolding my list to show the reasonable level of accuracy I have when recording "issues" with the drums for sale. Lots of typing there. Isn't it nice to have evidence to work from to make a point rather than use magic methods? I don't think I let any 22 size kicks sneak in there. Did I? Of course I don't use all this data to asses the expected price of pristine all factory original museum quality Jazzettes. But it is very useful for assessing several things. Here's a list off the top of my head:[list]prices for flawed Jazzettes (interesting in its own right)[*]the proportion of flawed Jazzettes[*]the proportion of inaccurate descriptions[*]creating a list of things to watch out for in descriptions (which might help both buyers and sellers do a better job)[*]a lower bound for what nicer Jazzettes might fetch[/list]I don't feel bad about contributing to any of these ventures.

No 22's...but a couple 18 X 14's -which is essentially the same effect as a 22 when it comes to the Jazzette moniker.

The list is a nice list. As far as "evidence", I can reduce that down to 4 (possibly) legitimate Jazzette kits. When I was researching the Jazzette many years ago, myself, and I came across SO many illegitimate ones, I learned VERY quickly to disregard them at a glance. So as nice a list as it is, it's got a lot of "noise" in it that I filtered out.

From that list, here are the only kits that I would consider as legit for the term Jazzette KIT

1.) Jazzette 1969 maple finish $3,600.00 -1 eBay 8-Jul-08 poppy76 bought it

2.) Jazzette 12/14/12x18/14 1056741,1056743,14=1559039 3 ply wmp $1,400.00 -1 eBay 30-Oct-08

3.) Ludwig Jazzette 1969 maple $3,151.99 15 eBay 30-Nov-08

4.) Would be the mahogany one that just sold for $1899

I know the one Poppy got (#1) did not come with a matching snare drum. I don't know enough about (#2) to determine legitimacy, but I would be curious to learn more about it in order to consider it viable to average along with the others or not. The same goes for (#3), but that price indicates that other people who DO know what a Jazzette is were probably bidding against each other to get it for a good deal. (#4) was an outrageously-good deal, in my opinion -still, no matching snare drum.

Also, those prices reflected in three of the examples are 3 years old already. Those aforementioned Jazzette kits are now sold, too. That means there are that number fewer on the market for sale...which means the chances of finding one for sale are less than ever...which means they are that much rarer...which means the market-perception of their value may have changed accordingly, as well.

Pricing comes down to whether or not it's raining in Bulgaria or not. It has to do with how long the yak's hair grew this season. It's based on the color of the clouds or on the pattern of the Oyster Blue Pearl wrap. It's magic. Two people decide to make a deal. The deal gets made.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God

Posted on 14 years ago

#19