LOL! Yeah I'll discuss or argue the Jazzette with ANYONE -ALL day/night long. It's my thing. It's my specialty. Why? meh...who knows?

I can't say that I empirically "know" this. I can, however, say that my own observation of using eBay over the years, in regards to collecting vintage drum KITS, has indicated a trend for fewer high quality items as of the last couple years and also a trend for less diverse stuff (not many OBP Downbeat kits...not as many psych red kits...and many other examples). Yes, it's an assumption that the really nice stuff is already in someone's collection....but that's what I do believe based on my own observation and theorization. Exceptions are a given, though. It's never "all or nothing" when it comes to vintage drums...except for the Jazzette. THEN, it's all or nothing.:Santa:

-just got back from reading through that old Jazzette discussion thread. Some of that stuff STILL blows my mind! But, it was a good discussion and had some helpful information in it, too.

But this thread, here, wasn't supposed to morph into a Jazzette-based topic, so I would like to attempt to steer it back to pricing practices and why I believe that using eBay as a gauge anymore is less indicative of the market than it used to be.

I'm not a cymbal expert at all but I know there has been an incredible rise in the pricing of old K. Zildjian cymbals over the years -my guess would be more than any other individual component related to the drum set.

My K. Zildjian story involves walking into a drum shop about ten years ago and seeing an old K. set up on a stand....went over to it...tapped on it...something happened to my soul. I had to have that cymbal. "How much?" "One thousand dollars."

My perception of prices was naive in those days. I couldn't believe how ridiculous I thought it was that a cymbal could cost anyone a thousand dollars. I mumbled and grumbled all the way home...kicking a tin can the entire way...x-mas1...

To this day, I have nightmares about that cymbal. It was "the" cymbal. It's long, long, long gone, now. And even if I could find it again, it ain't-a-gonna be for no thousand!

Who determined that price back then? The guy behind the counter who didn't really want to sell it and that's why he decided it should be a thousand. That's it. Of course maybe the guy used magic, too, because just look at how much prices have jumped on old K's. I think the basic philosophy is the same. That is, some things are not made anymore. Stradivarius violins died with Stradivarius...D'Angelico guitars died with D'Angelico...K. Zildjian cymbals died with Karope(sp?) Zildjian...and so on.

I wonder if the pricing of some things like this are starting to approach "fine artwork" status. I can tell from just looking at some of the old photos that the old ways of making cymbals by hand is quite different from the modern way...and, thus, probably gives indication as to why the old world craftsmanship methods were just too specialized and labor-intensive to maintain in a modern world of demanding players. Spizziccino is about the only person who makes the attempt at the old ways of cymbal making...and his prices are also reflective of the amount of craftsmanship involved... heh heh Needless to say, I like his art!

What are your thoughts as to why it seems to be more understandable or acceptable that a single, vintage cymbal can cost thousands of dollars? I'd ask this in the cymbal section, but it's really more a question about approaches to pricing and valuation.

My observation is casual at best because I don't obsess over my hobby of vintage drums. I have observed, and formed an opinion from reading through various online drum forums, that there seem to be more than a few people who are more than obsessed with a particular brand. Ludwig drums were more abundant than any other brand of top quality drums in the 50's and 60's. There are many of us who have varying degrees of attraction to other brands, but some Ludwig people make endless posts that read like the memoirs of a savant. News bulletin! Ludwig, especially in the 60's, was similar to most manufacturers. They made running changes to components of drum sets if they ran out of the originally specified components. Some drum companies didn't even bother to use new photos after the specs had been officially changed. I will give an example of this. After I had already worked for Fender for several years, I was able to meet and talk with Leo Fender. Leo had by that time been gone for several years from the company he had started. He came to our display at the NAMM show to check out the brand new American Reissue '52 Tele, '57 Strat, and '62 Strat. I pointed out the pick guard screws, and told him that a few "experts" told me that the screw heads we used on the reissues were incorrect. Leo laughed while telling me: "When we ran short of parts, I would grab the closest lackey, hand him the screw. Then I'd tell him to go down the street to the hardware store to buy ten pounds of screws with the same thread and of the same length. I didn't care if they were Phillips head or slot head or round head or oval head".

It's Kerope......pronounced "Care O Pay" ...said slowly,and like 3 different words........first 2 like "Kero",as in kerosene.

Wait....what? Where am I?

Um....pricing...pricing...oh yeah...PRICING!

Leedybdp, I'm not sure if your "Ludwig obsession/endless posts that read like the memoirs of a savant" was slightly directed at me or not so I'll ask you directly. Are you talking about the things I have written on this thread in any way as an example of what you mean?

Thanks, blairndrums!

My pleasure.........

No. My post was not aimed at you or calling you a savant. You and a few others have obviously made serious studies of the brand for which you obsess. I appreciate your diligence even though my interest in such things is only superficial. My observation about the savants are those whose entire vintage drum obsessions read like: Ringo used 5 sticks on the first Ed Sullivan show. He played exactly 43 notes on the floor tom during Hard Day's Night. The second Oyster Black set was picked up at Arbiter's shop on Tuesday August 23, 1964 at 3:38 PM by Nigel Smythe-Pfister in Ringo's own Morris Minor. Or, Bonham always tuned his tymapni to A#.

Leedybdp, Thanks for clarifying. :Santa:I think I'm getting a little jumpy or something. I'm going to go practice now. :Snow Flake:

O-lugs, the cymbal, 10 years ago, that would have been the high end on the price scale but still within reason, especially if it was a 'holy grail" k zildjian. I'm curious if you ever found out what happened to that cymbal. Did he sell it, or is it still there?

I apologize if you think I was attacking you. LeedyBDP, that's exactly how I perceive Ludwig and the other major brands, although the catalogs have the kits that are in the pictures, they were indeed itemized and one could (and often did) order them in whatever configuration one wanted to. I'm sure if any of those "non-original" sets were sold on eBay they would--on average, at least--sell for a bit less due to the discrepancy.

O-lugs, I agree the general level has perhaps dropped a bit, as collectors have already bought the good stuff and installed it into the collections or whatever. Also I've seen more parts sellers especially crop up over the years: people disassembling drums, singles and sets and selling the shells, lugs, etc. off piecemeal, hoping to maximize the profit margin. Still, one can still use eBay as a market indicator, as long as it is observed among the context of the entire market, dealers, craigslist, etc..

To be honest, I don't really care what value something has unless I'm either buying it or selling it, or both. And it is true something is worth exactly what it is paid for it. It is helpful to collect info together in the form of price guides. I wonder why someone hasn't put together a drum price guide similar to the guitar price guide. Maybe there's not as many collectors out there and too much variations between all the drum sets, to be able to put together as tight of a price guide for drums as there is for the Vintage Guitar Price guide or the Blue Book, etc..But you'd think it would be possible and helpful.